The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Veritas,

Although your request is not unreasonable, you should see Jim's point of view. In the past, the harshest attacks came from new anonymous accounts. If you wish to join the dialogue, please identify yourself (either to us or to Jim directly) otherwise you will be perceived as a troll or a banned user (like Paul S.) and not given the respect that you probably deserve.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Veritas,
I felt sure you would have seen that link before..........and been able to trace the origins of the pictures...........and dropped the name of the site owner in..........as usual.

Hmmmm.....multiple snipped quotes.......and clarification/repetition of questions................why is that style familiar?



Paul M

 

It seems familiar to me as well.

Me thinks PS has returned.

Erich

 

Oh dear, Fchat police to check IP address pls ...

 

Veritas's IP doesn't match any one else.

 

How difficult is it to go down to the local internet cafe and sign on from there?

 

Realistically speaking, what difference does it make exactly WHERE a question comes from in this grand debate? If the question has any legitimacy, then it has merit, regardless of where it comes from. Or are some participants in this great debate afraid of "anonomyous" posters who might actually have valid input? It is easy to dismiss the comments of Joe Troll if he has participated in the debate for months, but a newbie just MIGHT be someone who's opinion could hold great merit and could not so easily be dismissed. Sort of like the new gunfighter who walks into town. If you don't know exactly WHO he is, one should proceed with caution. And that bothers the other gunfighters who are not now so SURE of themselves.

And by the way, Paul S. was banned on a flimsy "assumed" technicality because a fellow co-worker logged onto F-chat from his workplace and therefore the same ISP. Moderators falsely assumed that he was attempting to log on using duplicate screen names, so he was banned and now we have lost his valuable input. Paul has direct input from "Piper Country" and is indeed a valuable source of input to the debate whether you agree with him or not.

At least that's what he told me in some e-mails along with some other forwarded e-mails and documents. I can't currently e-mail to Paul because some clown at our ISP attempted to e-mail several gigabytes of photograph attachments to some AOL users, and AOL thought that our ISP was a spam source and is now ignoring any e-mail from us to an AOL address.

 

Excuse me if I'm out of line, but if there are photos of the frame before any work was done on it, that would be interesting to see.

That being said, if those photos exist and did show some evidence that the frame was NOT 0846, I have the feeling Mr. Glickenhaus would not have pursued trying to prove it was 0846 to the extent he has, already knowing it isn't.

Ken

 

Strongly disagree with characterization of Paul S. as the spokesman for Piper.
Although he had apparently heard some of Wakefield's 'stories".....


Veritas, the missing photos from this site were lost in 'The Great Crash' of Rob's server, along with all of Speedy308s b itching bikini clad Ferrari Technicians!!!!! So no intentional subterfuge there......

I'd have to agree with the statements above that by his open minded investigations, Mr. G. has darn sure shared more than MOST lil' Ferrari Rebuilding Elves out there, and therefore at the very least deserves our admiration and respect......

He has LEFT THE CAR after the Targa Florio AT THE FACTORY, so that they can inspect it closely and make a determination.........,I do not see any other Ferrari collector anywhere in the world that has gone to such lengths........

I cannot say I blame him for not responding to anonymous posters in some Internet Chatroom. He has a Day Job, after all!!!!

 

Goodyear is up past $17.00/share..........

Goodyear is #1 in Racing........

If you rushed in at $3.90, you're golden! I gotta get another monitor in here.....

 

But isn't it all like trying to prove how the pyramids were built? When it comes to an automobile, once the trail of provenance is gone, and once the frame stampings are gone, and once the serial number tag is gone, you're left trying to prove an equation with 3 different unknowns. Virtually impossible. Just because somebody can not DISPROVE a theory on how the pyramids were built does necessarily add validity to the entire theory. Some theories just remain theories forever.

If I grind the date off a silver dollar, how can one EVER prove that it was made in 1880 or 1877 or whenever? Once irrepairable damage is done, and once the numbers are gone, and once the trail of ownership becomes cloudy, the truth is also UNproveable from that point on.

 

Nobody said Paul is the spokesperson for DP. Paul recently met with DP and I'm sure some of his buddies will post some stories that came out of that meeting.

It would be interesting to see early pictures if Jim has any. But of course that is entirely up to him to post such pics or not.

And I agree, that leaving the car with the factory is a very good approach and not many people have done or would do that.

 

What are you exactly suggesting? That Jim got a P4-replica delivered by Piper, only to replace the Piper P4chassis for a chassis that is actually a P3-chassis, bearing the damage-traces of 0846's history? Then to tell the world he actually got (the remains of) 0846, instead of the bought Piper-replica, keeping documentation on it for the world to see, have Vaccarella united with his old racecar in an event which must have been quite emotional for this involved, not making a mystery about not wanting to sell (which is the only interest one could have in falsy claiming a certain identity and history of a car), only to not only know his car isn't 0846, but to willfully and purposely have manufactered the false evidence himself?

Cause that Jim's car has a chassis built per P3-specs, modified to P4, is fact.

Even if the forensic and empiric evidence isn't totally complete, it still wouldn't make any sense for Jim to go through the obvious and immense trouble of putting on this great scam. Because that is what it would be. Either Jim speaks the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and he actually did get a car delivered that has a P3-chassis, modified to a P4-chassis, which traces of damage as sustained by 0846 during it's racing life, or he is going out of his way to lie about it. This from a man who obviously has no problem in acquiring the real thing, like the GT40 and 412P amongst others.

Apart from judging the evidence, I just don't buy it.

 

Won't that be an interesting legal situation to follow. Ferrari writes off a car therefore indicating that it no longer "legally, officially" exists according to them. Then 35+ years later, they are asked to "legally, officially" determine if it still exists. Sounds like a legal can of worms to me.

 

The only P3-chassis modified to a P4-chassis, was the chassis of 0846. Jim's car has a P3-chassis, modified to a P4-chassis. Not only this, the chassis bares the damage-marks of 0846. Piper only built full on P4-chassis'.

Beyond a reasonably doubt? I sure as hell would like to think so. Would it stand up in court? Sure.

 

Why? If Ferrari can confirm they only threw out the old chassis, scrapping it from their registers, it isn't all that hard to believe that someone picks it up after Ferrari have forgotten about it.

 

This photo is from a frame of BBC's TV coverage of the '67 LeMans race. As one can plainly see, 0846 was not destroyed, though it had burn and chassis damage.

Given the aforementioned damage, one can see why a portion of the chassis was repaired. The gentleman who repaired chassis 0846 has declared his welds to be the very same welds still found upon the very same chassis.

That car is in 'Napolis's possession. That car is 0846.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I remember a few years ago when some guys found the scrap remains of a Lockheed Electra aircraft on a remote Pacific atoll in the flight path of Amelia Earhart's long lost aircraft. The scraps essentially perfectly matched the wing panels and rivet holes of her TYPE of aircraft. But I don't ever remember seeing or reading anywhere that Lockheed or anybody else ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY confirmed that her aircraft had been conclusively located. Hope and dream and document all that you want, but sometimes things simply disappear and are gone forever.

 

Well, the story of Earhart and her plane exists upon the merits of it being mysteriously lost. Not so with 0846. We know the car existed, we know what happened to it, we know it is the only P3 in P4-configuration and the car didn't crash in unknown territory never to be seen again, only to mysteriously pop up in Jim's garage.

It's just not quite the same.

How many Lockheed Electra's are lost in or around this atol anyway?

 

Or at the very best, 80 percent of the chassis, some cylinder heads, a possible transmission, and absolutely none of the original body.

 

agreed.

 

Arlie either realizes it's none other than 0846 or is describing Pamela Anderson. Maybe both!

 

I think that it is very much the same. Sure we know that 0846 existed, but exactly WHERE WAS THE CAR between the time it was written off (around 1969 or whenever) and it's mysterious REDISCOVERY? What does that leave, only about THIRTY YEARS of UNACCOUNTABILITY???

That sure sounds like a whole lot of unconfirmed history that is casually being forgotten about.

 

We only need to know what Piper has done with it, while in his possession.

Jim didn't discover the chassis laying around somewhere, he merely discovered that his Piper-replica wasn't built on a P4-chassis, but on a P3-chassis, modified to P4, with 0846 damage-marks. Further investigation only added to the believe that this was actually the remaining chassis of 0846.

If it's not, then somebody else has manufactered a P3-chassis, modified it into a P4-chassis, added 0846 damage-marks to it, and didn't tell a single soul.

That's the only alternative to Jim's chassis not being the remains of 0846. You'd buy that?

Again, apart from judging the evidence, just going through the logic of it all.

 

Paul S. was very valuable in getting the car graphics correct.

Those Factory crew guys sometimes were in a bit of a hurry, slapping those sponsors on....I can relate.


I'll take a check anytime before the green flag drops!!! LOL!

You just have seen 'em jump to cover my Marlboro logoss after I made a wrong turn in Gasoline Alley......I didn't know Mr. Todt was giving an interview to ITV....