The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Thanks GTE, for so elegantly recapping two and a half years of Fchat squabbling.......that was a beautiful thing, bro.......

 

yea, sorry 'bout that

 

But let's suppose that Piper never "officially" talks about the matter. Then the years of his ownership of the car, an especially cruicial time frame for the great debate, will remain permanently undefined and unverified, therefore subject to continued speculation. Piper's silence could be for several various reasons, some already mentioned in the debate and others probably only known to him. He is a key link in the chain, and if he doesn't "anty up" some info for the peanut gallery, the monkeys will forever remain hungry!

 

0846 was THE ONLY CAR modded from a p3 to p4 specs.

they made a bunch of those Lockheed aircraft, and due to a number of reasons, its not uncommon to find them crashed in the Atolls or wherever there was poor weather just outside of thier maximum usable fuel load.


the 30 years of ? is a good question, but i disagree with the logic about the aircraft or any other mass produced "thing". the ferrari racer known as '0846 was one of one. it was not "mass produced" therfore it is unique. it doesnt need to have all the stamps, placcards and numbers in place to be "THE REMAINS OF " all that is left of 0846. Jim has never claimed it to be the whole car , as raced. it may be all that we have left of a cool car with a storied (race) history.

 

Ken
The only work done to the chassis by us was fully described in the 0846 papers. Once again. We took the car apart. We de-riveted the panels. We stripped the old paint off the chassis. We pressure tested the welds. We primed the chassis. We fixed a few leaks. We replaced no tubes. We modified no tubes. We cleaned the de-riveted panels. We painted the chassis. We re-riveted the cleaned panels. We did not repair the twist in the chassis that I believe was caused by the 1966 incident Nino spoke of in his letter to me nor did we modify the tube that I believe was damaged by the second 1967 Targa incident that Nino spoke of in his letter to me nor did we modify the tubes, that I believe were replaced after the third incident that Nino spoke of in his letter to me, The Le Mans Fire of 1967. We didn't shorten or lenghten the wheelbase, we didn't modify the water tube or the front and rear engine mounts. Except for very minor work, previously described, the chassis remains exactly as received from David.

None of this in new. All of this is fully documented. There ARE photo's in the 0846 papers of the chassis exactly as it came from David, albeit with the paint stripped off, but before pressure testing, leak repair, and priming taken between October 2000 and October 2002. Statements that there aren't are simply untrue. Many photo's of the chassis immediately upon de-riveting were posted on FCHAT years ago. Of course I still have them and of course I have one's that prove beyond the shadow of any doubt that this was a P3 chassis not a P4 chassis when I bought it from David. (Discovered by me after we disassembled the car and stripped the chassis as described years ago and documented in the 0846 papers.)

Want to see more photo's other than the ones that are already in the 0846 papers taken between 2000 and 2002, including ones previously posted but lost in the server crash? When the anonymous poster who falsely stated that there are no photo's of the chassis as I received it from David, (after stripping) taken between 2000 and 2002 in the 0846 papers identifies himself.

 

You mean he may be reluctant to go On Record as building three frames when Enzo said "only ONE, Mr. Piper.....", and handed him the blueprints ?????????

Can't imagine why....is cheating on dead guys a criminal offense? Or does it mearly reflect on your character???

Bear in mind I'm only repeating Urban Legend on the agreement, I was but a lad, at the time......

 

You know, I saw those photos on the Internet, just the other day!

I think they are still there!!!!!!


*thinking...thinking....where was that?????*

 

Call Piper on +xxxxx, he is a very nice guy. Spoke to him two weeks ago on the phone (no not about '0846') he CAN tell you more about this car which he had a very long time.

Oke no phonenumber, but this one will do: http://www.racecar.co.uk/isp/

 

Totally engrossed in this thread. I'd love to see the pics,pls Mr G

 

Oh, dear. Guess you didn't see the notice...

 

A little diversion. I didn't know there were fish eye lenses in 1966.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Nice!!!! Thanks for that!!

Yea, they had 'em, but only the fishes were using them...........

 

Jim has never claimed any more than this. There are plenty of "recognized" historic vintage Ferraris that do not have that much.


Terry

 

I don't "recognize" them either any more than I would "recognize" a 1967 L88 Corvette that was missing its body, original frame stampings, and serial number tag. As I mentioned in a totally different thread, justice is blind. She doesn't take a "peek" to see how rare a car is, she just weighs the evidence whether it's a P4 Ferrari, L88 Corvette, or a Ford GPW Jeep.

 

True, but what they do have which Jim's car doesn't have - as Arlie pointed out - is provenance, a continuous history.
Nathan

 

That's an awesome shot, thanks!

Ever seen those Saturn V launch pictures taken from cameras on top of the gantry showing the whole vehicle rising? Fisheyes in the sixties.

 

There is a nice b/w picture of 0846 in the book (page 63) Archives du passionné Le Mans 1960-1969 by Michel Bollée during preliminary testing (no. 22)

btw Nathan you have mail

 

While I believe Mr. G is disclosing the truth on the car to the best of his knowledge and it's entirely possible that Piper ended up with 0846s frame somehow, I have one question.

When tearing this car down for a restoration and it was discovered that it was a P3 chassis and it had frame damage consistent with 0846 why wasn't work stopped right then and the best most recognized Ferrari experts in the world brought in to examine the chassis first hand to form an opinion it was 0846? This is a very significant find if it was believed to be 0846 and surely recognized Ferrari historians would have wanted to examine it.

Everyone knows photos can be retouched, not saying that happened here but the experts would want to see it with their own eyes and touch it, after that a consensus would have been made on what it is or is not.I think the only way this will ever be settled is to strip the car bare and let the chips fall where they may.

 

In a strange way this is exactly what did happen via the Internet on Ferrari Chat. My posting led to many physical inspections at various stages. All of the photo's I've posted can be verified by multiple independent sources and physical inspection. Read the 0846 papers in their entirety. In the end the chassis that is in my car speaks for itself. It always has and it always will.

 

This also works both ways. For example Replica Paul has recently publicly stated:

"By the way, speaking of 'caged birds', t*ssers, and all that, I understand that 'The Truth' about a certain other (occasionally) street-driven (and very expensive) P4 replica is about to come out into the open.
Maybe I ought to change my signature to: 'The Truth is OUT'.
It can be read by only a 'fortunate few' at present, sadly: http://www.p4replicabb.com"


Reverse engineering the 0846 Papers shows there can only be three possibilities.

1. David knowingly and very expertly forged an exact replica of 0846's chassis in the early 70ies and knowingly committed an intentional criminal act when he warranted and attested on both the Bill of Sale and The COO that the chassis he sold me was built, in the early 70ies to P4 blueprints given to him by Enzo Ferrari, when he sold it to me.
This would have to include replicating the three incidents Nino spoke of and the damage they caused. This would also entail David lying to people such as Max for no apparent reason when David confirmed to him that my chassis was from the same batch as 0900 and 0900a.

2. After buying 0003/0846 from David I somehow built/ commissioned an expertly forged exact replica of 0846's chassis as per the above and forged the ACO stamps on the heads and gearbox. (Remember David told Doug Nye that there were no ACO stamps on the heads he sold me and that they were originally F1 both of which are untrue.) (David also stated the gearbox was F1,which is also untrue as Macca has proven and as it's stamped with a P3 stamping and as David's Bill of Sale and COO both cite that P3 stamping it's clear I didn't forge that one.)

Or...

3. Against all odds the chassis in my car contains 80%+ of the chassis remains of 0846.

The 0846 papers have been out for years. I know #2 did not happen and many others who were there during my restoration and forensic investigation know and can prove that it is not true as well.

#1, while theoretically possible, IMO, is extremely implausible, beyond all reasonable doubt mostly because if David had perpetrated that fraud why didn't he try to benefit from it? #1, once again by forensic investigation is also provable to have not occurred.

#3 is what it is.

With the hindsight of the 0846 papers I'm sure someone will attempt to prove #1 or #2 as Replica Paul Darkly hints but in the end I'm happy to be judged by a jury of my peers which in a strange was is also what has occurred on Ferrari Chat.

I am also very glad not to be one of Replica Paul's 'fortunate few' .

 

I got this email in my Velocetoday account (where my article was first published).

[QUOTE="Think Positive" <[email protected]>]
Subject: Ferrari 0846 and the big con!
Date: Mon 08/01/05 12:32 PM
Hi,

I hear its all over for Mr. Glickenhaus and 0846 then!,,,,,,,,It is, and confirmed a fake I hear!

??
[/QUOTE]

Anyone want the original to do an ISP trace for me? Funny that even I get anonymous emails over this...

 

What article ??? ... link anyone?

Pete

 

http://www.velocetoday.com/cars/cars_69.php

 

Oh your original 0846 article ... thanks anyway, but I thought there was a new one.

[quote="Think Positive" <[email protected]>]
Subject: Ferrari 0846 and the big con!
Date: Mon 08/01/05 12:32 PM
Hi,

I hear its all over for Mr. Glickenhaus and 0846 then!,,,,,,,,It is, and confirmed a fake I hear!

??
[/QUOTE]
I thus have to assume that when whoever states 'confirmed a fake' refers to Ferrari Spa's recent(?) comments reiterating that #0846 no longer exists?

Pete

 

Nope. Not yet at least.