The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Arlie instead of spouting, read:

"That's the point. Over many years David has very specifically stated exactly what he believes the chassis that's in my car to be. Twice in writing. Once to Max and once to Nathan. Every time he's said the same thing. His story about 0003/0846 has never changed:

"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine."


He wasn't lying on the Bill of Sale. He wasn't lying on the COO. His statements as to what the chassis he eventually sold me is have been consistent for 18 years. They've remained exactly the same. Nathan has confirmed this and proven my point.

David has consistently said what he believes to be true. The chassis that he sold me proves he's wrong. In the end that's what it comes down to.
Pretty cool."

Once again: DAVID HAS ALWAYS SAID THE CHASSIS HE SOLD ME WAS BUILT TO P4 PLANS.

It's not. It's built to P3 plans. That is indisputable fact. Nathan has once again confirmed what David believes: David believes 0003/0846 is built to P4 plans.

The photo Nathan posted proves that David is wrong.

 

None of which does anything at all to actually PROVE any of the theory that 0846 survived its trip to the Modena junkyard and then sat mysteriously somewhere for 30 years and then was NOT part of DP003 or whatever chassis.
Or are we to NOW believe that Chinetti's mysterious "wink and nod" statements are PROOF that the chassis of 0846 survived? Can we get some forensic analysis of his "winks and nods" that will tell us where the chassis was hiding for 30 years, assuming of course that it was NOT part of DP003 or something else??? (we couldn't possibly take Piper's word for anything, because what does he know, he was only THERE when all this was going on, and not sitting in his easy chair 30 years after the fact.)

Hypothetical rambling:

Many years ago, my hypothetical grandfather was going to buy an antique airplane from Lindberg but decided against it because why would Lindberg have known what he had; he only helped build and fly the things. He was probably mistaken about what he built, flew, and sold.

(Insert the words "car" and "Piper" in place of "airplane" and "Lindberg" in the above theory and you will instantly see how absurd it sounds.)

 

Arlie
The one thing we do now know with absolute certainty, thanks to Nathan's confirmation of David's statements and the Photo Nathan posted is that David was, is, and remains wrong about 0003/0846's chassis being built to P4 plans.

 

Your eye sight must be better than mine JG. You've made much in the past about a nearly microscopic wheelbase difference of 12mm or so between a P3 and a P4. But somehow, in that one grainy photo posted by Nathan, you can accurately determine that the front chassis mounts have never been altered at all???? If 12 mm determines the difference between night and day in a wheelbase dimension, how can you accurately determing anything about a motor mount from one grainy photograph taken from 20 feet away?

A guy named Patterson took an 8MM COLOR film of Bigfoot back in 1967; the same year that 0846 raced at LeMans. Scientific minds don't believe his film is real, yet scientific thinking is supposed to tell us all we need to know about a P3/4 motor mount from ONE grainy photograph?

You're in the film business JG. Do the math. An 8MM film in 1967 was running at 18 frames per second; possibly 24 frames per second depending upon the setting of the camera. That means at the very least there were about 18 frames per second times 15 seconds worth of film which equals 270 INDIVIDUAL PHOTOGRAPHS OF BIGFOOT that were "analyzable".

But scientific minds refuse to acknowledge Bigfoot's existance based on those 270 photographs.

Yet you can tell the undeniable truth about a car frame from ONE grainy photograph. Amazing.

 

Put down the pipe and step away from the keyboard Horsefly.

What car did Piper sell 25 years ago?

003/0846 (the topic of this thread) was sold to Mr G about 5 years ago.

Erich

 

Something in that article confused me.

The Chris Amon drove a "P4" to victory at Daytona. Correct? That car was 0846 Correct? If I am wrong on these points disregard the questions below


The article refers to Amon's car as a fuel injected P4.

The article also refers to a P3/4 with a carbureted engine that was run by NART, driven by Pedro Rodriguez/Jean Guichet.
What was this car? How did it differ from 0846? Why is Jim referring to 0846 as the only P3 converted to P4?

 

But you are erroneously falling into the trap. You are starting to PERCEIVE that fact that 003 and 0846, the long lost LeMans racer, are one in the same. See how the .......propaganda,.....is starting to affect you?
(25 years was just a number. Was not 003 listed in the Christie's auction catalog some time around 1987,....which was nearly 20 years ago?)

I'm just wondering when the great debate will turn EXTREMELY nasty. Like maybe when Piper himself gets tired of hearing that certain people keep saying that he was WRONG, and that he didn't know what he had inside his own garage, etc. It certainly must be a bummer for a veteran Ferrari racer and enthusiast to keep hearing that he didn't know what he was talking about concerning this car, that car, or whatever car. Amazing that he can drive a P4 Ferrari or a Porsche 917 at 200mph, but yet certain people think that he is so senile that he didn't know how his own cars were built, or where they came from.

 

I have formed no conclusions. You have no clue what or how I PERCEIVE this issue. I called it 003/0846 as shorthand. To be precise about what I was referring to. You could also say I am providing fair and balanced reporting on this issue
Did 003 sell lo these many years ago when listed in Christies auction catalog?

Erich

 

Thank you Wayne. So 0846 and 0844 started life as P3 chassis. Makes sense given their sequential S/N's

So 0844 would require the same kinds of structural mods to fit a P4 motor as those the factory gave to 0846?

Or was 0844 still running a P3 engine?

Sorry for all the?'s


Erich

 

From what I hear, it was sold to a guy in New York about 5 years ago and Piper knew exactly what he was selling.

 

Nathan, some people assume that Piper doesn't know his old cars. Perhaps they feel that Ferrari doesn't know their old cars either.

 

A lot of those tests on the list ARE destructive, Wayne.

*hacksaw noise*

Where's my chromatograph???? Dad had one in his stuff, somewhere...........you get that thing REAL HOT, and it makes a pretty picture!


*burning smell*

 

Arlie
apparently, that's because if you have something for 5 years you know everything, but once you get past 5 years knowledge you start to go senile -
Nathan

 

Wayne/Erich

412 P's have P3 engines not P4 engines. Some people have sometimes referred to 412 P's as "P 3/4's" but as they lack P4 engines they really aren't.
There is only one P3 that was converted by Ferrari S.p.A. to accept a P4 engine; 0846. (Page 63) The "SCHEDA TECNICA" refers to 0846 as "-330 P3/P4 (1967) Telaio N 0846."

Nathan

Thanks again for confirming that David has once again stated:"The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine." along with a photo that conclusively proves he's wrong about the chassis being built to P4 plans. David gave me a bunch of similar photo's as well but I'd forgotten about them but I'll scan and include them in the next edition of the 0846 papers.

I agree that it's funny that Ferrari S.p.A., in light of repeated invitations, doesn't seem interested in inspecting the car but as I pointed out years ago, in the second paragraph on page 63, under Ferrari S.p.A's "Authentication Definition" 0846 could not be authenticated it's possible as Wayne pointed out Ferrari S.p.A. may not be interested in discovering what happened to 0846 after Le Mans, 1967.

In light of the following email, which you have already seen, I think you should be asking Joanne as to why, even though I've made it quite easy for them to inspect the car, they unlike many others, seem disinclined. As you also know I have always welcomed inspection and many have taken me up on the offer.

Dear Joanne
I have been forwarded the email you sent to FerrariChat by Wayne Ausbrooks.
Your statement: "There is no mention of chassis number 0846 on any official Ferrari web site," is completely untrue. For many years there have been many mentions of my chassis number 0846 on a official Ferrari web site copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A. Go to the Official Ferrari Owners site. Log in. (My Username is *** Password ***) Go to "Your Garage" Note 330 P4 sitting there. Click on 330 P4. Note page that comes up with photos of my car undergoing restoration. Note 330 P4 Factory specifications, date and month of my purchasing this vehicle, and color of my vehicle. Note that this posting was done by Ferrari S.p.A after I typed in the mandatory (*) chassis/VIN# 0846 and Ferrari S.p.A. took weeks to evaluate my information, confirmed by email to me that before my car could be put into "Your (MY) Garage" that careful examination was necessary due to the special circumstances surrounding my car and the necessity to have my information checked by "Ferrari Classiche" Only after this careful examination occurred did Ferrari S.p.A. place P4 0846 into "Your (MY) Garage" on an official Ferrari web site. Most importantly this posting obviously involved research by Ferrari S.p.A. as Ferrari S.p.A. corrected the mandatory required information I typed into the Ferrari web site correcting the date of manufacture of Ferrari 330 P 3/4 from my erroneous 1967 to 1966 which now appears on the web page.
There are many, many more postings of my car 0846 labeled as 0846 including photos and discussion on official Ferrari web sites and have been for years. If you go to the forum in the Classic section you can view them. On the original forum there was an entire posting of the restoration of 0846 and the fact that I had years ago, after giving Ferrari S.p.A. notice of my intention to so do, registered my 330 P4 Chassis # / Vin# 0846 with the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles. Mr Montezemolo and other officers of Ferrari S.p.A were informed of that registration with the New York State Department Motor Vehicle of Motor Vehicles years ago and that The New York Department Of Motor Vehicles had registered Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis # / VIN# 0846 in my name and had issued New York State Licence Plate "330 P4" to my car. Photos of that Licence Plate, "330 P4" are on the web site as well. There is also a link on the Ferrari web site to "The 0846 Papers" which Umberto Masoni of Ferrari Maserati Classic described in a letter to me dated October 5th 2004:

"Subject: Ferrari 330 P3/4 Chassis 0846

"Dear Mr. Glickenhaus
We wish to thank you for the extensive documentation that we have received, for competence, from Mr. Montezemolo's office."

Umberto Massoni had a long conversation with Sal Barone where he stated that Ferrari wanted to find an acceptable way to describe my car and stated that Ferrari wanted to be fair to me and the car. The description which I believe is fair and accurate and have given to the FIVA and will and will be soon giving to the FIA is as follows:

After Le Mans 1967, Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, including remains of the original chassis and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace, and John Hajduk, Jr.to restore 0846 to original specifications.

Ferrari S.p.A has been aware of all of this for years and many postings have been made on an official Ferrari Web Site copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A..
I did not make post 147 but in light of the postings that have been made on official Ferrari web sites including Ferrari S.p.A.'s placing of " 66 Ferrari 330 P 4
month of purchase 07 year of purchase 2000 color Rossa Corsa " into "Your (MY) Garage" on an official Ferrari web site, can understand how the poster could come to that conclusion.

As for what I have posted I stand behind it 100% including all beliefs that are expressed in the 0846 Papers, http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf which Ferrari S.p.A. have had for years.

In closing 330 P 3/4 0846 will be in Italy for the summer and Ferrari S.p.A. is more than welcome to inspect it.

Very Truly Yours

James Glickenhaus

 

Nathan
What part of this statement:
"In closing 330 P 3/4 0846 will be in Italy for the summer and Ferrari S.p.A. is more than welcome to inspect it."
that closed my last email to Ferrari S.p.A. don't you understand?

I have invited them many times. This is fact. 0846 is still in Italy and will be for several weeks, after their factory reopens, being inspected by others. They remain free to inspect it.

By the way that invatation was last extended in June and as to date they have not RSVP'ed your statement:

"

is absurd.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that Piper built his P4's around 1968, which includes 003/0846.. It was hidden underneath the car.

It also seems pretty clear that Jim has a chassis that does not correspond with David's description of it. It doesn't matter "who says what" at this point in the game- it stands that Jim bought 003, not 0846. 003 was described as a P4 chassis but it's actually a P3/4 design and has been all along. How simple can it get?

Bring up the Bigfoot analogy again and I'm going to insist that you start writing all of your posts in Crayon.

C.

 

Early 70ies but close enough.

 

Sorry, scanned the timeline on Pg. 3 and got 0900/003 mixed up. It's still not 30 years, however.

BTW, when was 0854 built? As Wayne brought up, I've often thought that an examination of the metal in 0846 would help solve some of the mystery here. Maybe they're close enough in the timeline to give it a try? (Assuming that Ferrari would buy their tubing in bulk & from the same manufacturer over a period of years)

C.

 

But the fact that Ferrari, or anybody else, does NOT run like the wind to invest their time and effort to inspect the chassis does not add any proof or validity whatsoever to the ongoing 0846 "theory". Nor does it answer the mysterious missing 30 years of provenance. Absence of dispute does not necessarily equal proof of theory. Perhaps it's just like I said in post 315 of this thread, maybe it's a giant legal can of worms. Why should they care unless it means some sort of long term liability issue for them. And then, just like I said earlier, it could become VERY nasty. Does anybody think that Ferrari will ever officially acknowledge the existance of a car that they officially "wrote off" decades ago? Can you imagine the liability issue that would occur if they officially acknowledge the car's current existance and then one day, the car was involved in an accident? Why on earth would Ferrari willfully and knowingly EVER take that chance considering that they legally "wrote off" the car decades ago? Why not just open up the Ferrari cash vault and start tossing money out the third floor window. It would save a lot of time!
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Actually, I can't imagine such a senario. It's not Ferrari's car, it's Jim's.

But please clarify your theory.. Would it be Oswald, Lindbergh or Bigfoot driving?
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In the end #003/0846 is either:

1. A new P3 chassis made around the early 70's (#003), which Piper then modified to accept a P4 engine. In doing this modification he copied how Ferrari did it.

2. Chassis #0846.

3. Ofcourse the other option is that upon striping the #003 down, Jim and his team somehow obtained P3 chassis specs and made a completely new chassis. They carefully incorporated damage and repairs to replicate #0846's repairs and then built the car back up again. Incredible effort ... and maybe if we search around Jim's workshop we might find the old P4 chassis components.

But importantly neither of the first 2 (serious ) above options are consistent to what Piper believes #003 is or was, thus a P4 modified to accept a P3 or P4 engine. Therefore Horsefly, whether you like it or not, Piper did NOT sell Jim a P4 chassis!, FACT (assuming option 3 can be ruled out ).

Pete
ps: Why did Piper not add chassis tags to his new chassis'? ... I assume that #0900 actually does have a chassis tag as it is the only approved chassis he made.

 

Where is the serial number stamped on the chassis of 0844, 0848, 0850, 0854, 0856, 0858, and 0860? Anybody know? Is there a common thread in these? Would it be in a location that would have been modified in Jim's car (i.e. engine mounting areas, crash damage area from 1967 Targa, or fire damaged area from LeMans 1967)?

If all of the other cars are stamped on, let's say, a front crosspiece, shouldn't Jim's car be stamped there, too? Or else show evidence of grinder marks where it was removed?

If the other cars are stamped at random areas, this wouldn't mean anything. But they must be stamped SOMEWHERE.

Also, would a prototype car from the 60's typically have a manufacturer's ID plate rivited onto it somewhere, or just a number stamped onto the frame? Do the other P3, P4, 412P cars have ID plates?

 

My understanding is that the chassis numbers were stamped into a small piece of steel and then tack welded on to the chassis.

If this part of the chassis remained intact (ie. after the many accidents) then I assume yes you might see grinder marks ... but I think it would have been in the damaged area (ie. Le Mans accident) and thus gone .

Pete

 

Arlie,

What is your response to my post #465?

Pete