The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

GTE, Auto makers don't even do what you're suggesting TODAY!!!!!!!!! When they want something destroyed, it is shipped off to a designated scrapping center that is under contract to destroy the cars. (That's what GM does.) But nobody is standing by the crusher on a cell phone to the factory to verify that every test car is scrapped. There is never any ABSOLUTE way to GUARANTEE that something was destroyed, so therefore, they are never going to pop up 35 years later and say, "Yeah, that's our car alright". If that ever happened, then the scrapper would have a lawsuit on his hands for not fulfilling his end of the contract.
If you search JG's touted "documentation", he even lists MY TALE of a GM prototype convertible that escaped the crusher where it SHOULD have gone back in the early 80s. (a small Pontiac that was carted away by a mystery man BEFORE it went to the crusher. And do you think that GM would EVER officially, legally acknowledge that car's existance today??? Hardly.)

ASSUMPTIONS, CONJECTURE, THEORY, without a shred of proof behind it, am I not correct???????????????????????????????????????????

 

Hi
The structure/configuration of 0003/0846's chassis when compared to P3/412P 0844 and (P3)/412P 0854 and P4 0856 prove 0003/0846 is not built to "P4 Plans/Blueprints". Since Nathan posted his photo which shows a P3 engine motor mount mating to the point of triangulation of 0003/0846's P3 chassis motor mount as does P3/412P 0844's P3 motor's engine mount with P3/412P 0844's P3 Chassis motor mount. (Pages 67 and 68) that is no longer in question.

This photo taken early on in our restoration of 0846 clearly shows the P3 position of 0846's chassis motor mounts (Front and Rear) which remains exactly, in CONFIGURATION, POSITION,AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE FRONT AND REAR MOUNTS IS EXACTLY THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE ENGINE MOTOR MOUNTS ON A P3 ENGINE, A SHORTER DISTANCE THAN THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE ENGINE MOTOR MOUNTS ON A P4 ENGINE WHICH IS LONGER, EXACTLY AS THEY DID WHEN DAVID OWNED 0003/0846 PROVING 0003/0846 IS A P3 CHASSIS P3 NOT BUILT TO P4 PLANS.

As for the size of the tubes, 0854 vs. 0846, when they are together again I'll measure the tubes I believe to be 80+% of the remains of 0846 vs. 0854's chassis tubes with a micrometer.

Best
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And you actually think that should that car ever be involved in a fatal road accident, that the factory's name wouldn't be near the top of the list on the lawsuit proceedings from the surviving family members???? Tell me you're not that naieve.

Is the Brooklyn bridge up for sale? I want to make an offer.

As long as everybody likes legal documents, can you post the official legal document that "wrote off" that car, along with the official legal document that "re-acknowledged" its existance?

 

Amazingly enough, a good question is here even if Arlie never got through his bluster to ask it:

Does anyone have P3 blueprints to confirm the frame is P3; besides the motor mounts that is. Yes, we know that there are a ton of differences that confirm it's not built to P4 specs, but how certain are we it's P3 specs? If I missed this in the papers I apologize.

Ken

 

Yes many see post 422 for some.

 

Ken, I also asked a similar question to another person by e-mail. If Piper was the only person ever entrusted with chassis blueprints, (be they P3, P4, or whatever), how did Norwood build their reproduction P3/4 cars? Did they copy the frame dimensions of other cars, or did somebody slip them a chassis blueprint under the table?

 

I didnt know brooklyn bridge is up for sale, maybe some idiot will buy it like they did with London bridge and stick it in Lake Haversu................. Only in America

Ferrari acknowledge that AAC815/021 is what it is, they acknowledge that even though they thought it had been scapped it wasn't, the legal document is reproduced in Franco Varisco's book 815 The genesis of Ferrar ISBN1-872718-01-9

Yet again you actually think 2005 Ferrari (part of FIAT) would ever be held responsible for an accident involving an Auto Avio Constrizone tipo 815 manufactured in 1938............. Only in America



PS if anybody is going near Havasu please remove the incorect mural portraying St George slaying the Wrong dragon......... George didnt slay the Welsh Dragon.....

 

Jim,

Speaking of blueprints, you provided P3/4 specifications. Do you know if sketches or blueprints of the tube layout modifications exist from Ferrari for the P3/4? It might be nice to be able to overlay top and side views of the P4, P3/4, P3 and 0846/003 chassis layouts to more clearly demonstrate the differences and similarities.

This may not be possible or practical.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. Evans East is an analysis facility in central New Jersey that I have used for metallurgical analysis (non-destructive). If you need an intro let me know.

 

Thanks. P4 Staff may be able to do this. Not sure but I'll ask him.

 

...whatever

 

I guess I am. Give me a case in which Ferrari would be liable for damages when a car that turns out to be Ferrari P3/P4 #0846, built in 1966, is involved in an accident. Remember, there are lots and lots of cars that haven't been administrated as scrapped by their manufacturers. Are all those manufacturers exposed to liabilitycases?

 

This thread would benefit from a liberal spraying of this:
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But 0846 WAS administrated as being scrapped, was it not? Was it not officially "written off" 35+ years ago? And you actually think that the factory is going to sign a legal document saying "Yes, we have examined the car in the possession of John Doe and we hereby legally officially acknowledge that it was produced by the Ferrari factory in 1966 with the serial number 0846".

Now I'm sure that somebody is going to say that 0846 is listed on "such and such" web site and THAT means the Ferrari factory is officially acknowledging that it exists. We all know that if it appears on the internet, then it certainly must be true, eh? Internet web pages are not exactly notarized documents.

 

I have to wonder how it is that Mr. Piper and his guys didn't notice this when they went to put the P3 motor into 0003/0846. How could they have failed to notice that the P3 motor fit without modification into the "P4" chassis they thought they had?

Even if Piper himself wasn't wrenching on it personally at that time, it's hard to imagine that his shop foreman or whoever wouldn't have brought this to his attention.

Also, Jim, you mentioned the Dymo label with "0846" stuck on the chassis. Presumably someone else before you must have considered that it was 0846 as well, then? Was there any story associated with this label?

 

Sorry, just referencing this quote in my own posts so that I can dig it up later.

C.

 

Effectively, I think that IS what they did by placing it in the "Your Garage" section of the Ferrari Owner's website.

 

And as I've said several times before, that's exactly what the Ford Museum said when they placed that bogus antique chair on display for several YEARS. And then it was found to be a fake, repro, whatever you want to call it. Just because somebody puts something on display, that does not necessarily make it any more authentic. And in a similar vein:

Posted by Horsefly on 08-26-2005, 03:40 PM

And in reply to that:
Posted by GTE on 08-26-2005, 05:45 PM

I believe he has been claiming that all along. Here's a photo that I ran across in my archives that was probably lost in the great F-chat crash. My eyes aren't imagining the numbers 0846 on that windshield placard, are they? Looks like somebody HAS INDEED been claiming that their ENTIRE CAR is serial number 0846. I don't see the words "REPRODUCTION", "KIT CAR", "TRIBUTE",
"CONTINUATION", or "ALLEGED" printed anywhere on that placard, do you?
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Nope. I don't see a "REPRODUCTION", "KIT CAR", "TRIBUTE", "CONTINUATION", or "ALLEDGED"[sic] 0846 anywhere, either.

I see 0846 with a placard.

 

Hi

That's the point. Ferrari S.p.A. in their sole discretion put it there, years ago, on a Web Site that Ferrari S.p.A. owns and has copyrighted in their name. (Page 111 and 112). 0846 is parked there today.
There's an interesting thing with their web site. If you go to "Your Garage"
and open up the first page and click on your list of cars which brings up the page with that car on it and right click on that page and click select all and right click again and click save and paste what you've saved into a microsoft write email or word program the embedded code that Ferrari S.p.A. uses to generate the page comes up. As page 112 clearly shows Ferrari S.p.A. lists my "330 P4" chassis number "0846" FIVE TIMES.

IMO the label simply means that particular part was thought by someone at some time to have come from 0846. Perhaps it was included in the factory spares David acquired in the late sixties.

Don what's more surprising to me is that as recently as Nathan's visit David does still not understand that 0003/0846 is not built to P4 Plans/Blueprints but Nathan's quote speaks for itself. David consistently got that wrong over the last 18 years which also speaks for itself.

Best

 

Arlie
As you'd know if you bothered to read, that Placard was prepared and printed by The Ferrari Club Of America in their sole discretion when they invited me to display my car at their national concourse. They printed it and instructed me to display it.

 

I don't mean to barge in where I may not belong.... but if I may add in my few and far between thoughts as an utter novice.

I've been following 846's saga for some time now and have considered a number of the issues regarding repairs to the original chassis; instigate a study of tubing metallurgy; period dating the technique of those welds and possibly the shielding gases used etc...... but it all still boils down to how in the heck did 846 (or parts thereof) get into Pipers hands?

Okay, Piper gets on hands and knees and weasels out of Enzo plans for the P4 chassis and promises to make only one copy. Piper then assures Enzo that he will destroy whatever photographic evidence in his possession that pursuaded Enzo give him the plans in the first place. Baah! End of all those conspiracy theories.

Now, maybe Mr David is not the brightest guy in the world and is not good at working from blueprints. So he asks for a sample to copy from. No P4 chassis are floating around the dead chassis pile but there is this bent and twisted P3 once known as 8xx. Or it was until it was ruined and went into the pile. But it's close enough and would get a guy started in the P4 chassis business. So gathered with plans and samples off he goes into the night with the desire to build 0900.

Pipers mission was to make a P4 replica/continuation racer. Did he actually only make two or three? If someone donated a wrecked sample chassis from the scrap pile to give him a hands on example/jig for which he was constructing I can follow the birth of 0900. Maybe make a spare in case of an oops? Call that 0900a. Now, what about that oddball P3 "sample" wreck that was fixed up and used to make a jig? Rebody it and power it with spares available and race it too? After you're done with it sell it to the first dummy with the money that comes along.

If that was true I'd certainly not be saying too much either.

What is missing in the chain is confirmation that 0846 made its way to Pipers shop for whatever reason and wasn't melted down to make a brand new Fiat bumper. I think Crash -> Ferrari -> Scrapyard is assured. J.G needs Scrapyard -> Piper -> Resurrected 0846 documentation. Otherwise it's just a numbers correct replica at most.

As for all of the banter of Ferrari getting involved or not meaning much of anything is hilarious. This is a car that they threw away years ago. I am sure that Ferrari are continuing along doing what they do best. They make money by manufacturing exotic vehicles for the wealthy and reinvesting the proceeds thereof into ensuring that they have a competitive product so that they can continue selling exotic vehicles to the wealthy. Net profit keeps the mother ship off of their back. As for 0846; the reality is that they have no financial interest in it per say, other than making reproduction spares for the P3 series of chassis. Otherwise, I'm sure they've gotten over that loss.

Asbestos suit on - please flame away!!!

Steve

 

No flames (since I'm in a good mood today) but I'll just suggest that you take off the fire suit and instead put on your reading cap.

http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf

C.

 

All summed up in a nutshell. Very well said indeed.

 

... and exactly what Jim is trying to complete. We have been saying this for fncken years ... in between arguing with YOU Arlie on some nutty tangent.

If Jim CAN prove continous history then he can prove that #0846's chassis did INDEED become #003.

Thus in this process we have hit a snag, because we HAVE proven Piper views on #003 are incorrect ... thus now we need to find out how #003 REALLY came about.

Pete
BTW: Arlie your comment regarding somebody making a dead accurate P3 chassis from P4 drawings had me in tears of laughter . I thought you had an engineering background? ... so lets try and keep the debate to something feasible.

This is also why I asked pre post #465 if Piper ever owned a genuine P3 ... cause then he might have replicated the chassis, and this has slipped his memory. But he would have had to have either P3 drawings (which he apparently didn't) or a P3 chassis to copy OR he was supplied a P3 chassis.

Note: I am not at all interested in the legal side of this debate, ie. did Piper lie, etc. Piper is a wheeler and dealer ...

But I can see no reason why he has persisted with this P4 chassis angle, unless he was sold something he did not ask for. Piper though being a wheeler and dealer you would have thought would have investigated this but then in 1970 he may have not cared. Even a P3/4 in those days would have been just an old crapped out race car.

 

I think that Jim has the cart before the....prancing horse, doesn't he? He's already REPEATEDLY referred to the car AS 0846 and there hasn't been ANY proof of continuous history yet. Shouldn't one PROVE the theory before promoting the desired outcome?

When did I ever ask THAT question? I asked how Norwood built their chassis: with or without an original set of plans? What are you smoking down there? And you think that something "slipped" Piper's memory? Now you must SURELY be smoking something.