The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

You do understand the concept of a 'theory' don't you?

Darwins theory of evolution is still open to being disproved and hasn't been 100% proved. Thus it is 100% valid for Jim to push his theory and we are all working on it.

Your post #498, I quote:

Pete

 

I can see how this would be interesting for this debate, I can´t however see how this is important for this debate. Once we can establish beyond any reasonable doubt that Jim´s car is built upon (the remains) of the 0846 chassis, then it is no longer important how it got in Pipers hands in the first place, since we know it did. So I can understand how Jim puts the focus on the fact that the chassis in his car shares (at least remarkable) factual and historical similarities as the one in #0846. The thought that the chassis in Jim´s car actually is that of #0846, is certainly not without fundament (as Arlie would have you believe).

Don´t forget Jim didn´t know any better than to be buying a Piper-replica and set out to do so. Only after taking delivery and stripping the car down, making some discoveries, the saga got underway.

If the chassis in Jim´s car is not #0846, then someone else built a P3-chassis from scratch and modified it to P4-standards, adding damagemarks. The only reason to do such a thing, is to have the world believe you own the chassis of #0846 with all the financial consequences as such. Fact is however, that whoever would´ve built a chassis like this, remained silent. This builder also must have had an extensive insider knowledge of the #0846, since he flawlessly replicated Sparling´s repairjob. How it eventually came into Pipers possesion, is of no importance.

If the chassis in Jim´s car is #0846, then a little piece of motorracinghistory is saved and secured and that always is a good thing, right? How it eventually came into Pipers possesion, again, is of no importance.

 

Well I disagree.

I think the ONLY way we will ever prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the chassis in Jim's car is built upon (the remains) of the #0846 chassis IS to complete the chassis' continous history.

I honestly cannot see how else it can be proved.

Otherwise all we are going to have is 'yeah, that looks like my repair ...' or yes it is possible that the steel tubes are from the same batch ... not conclusive in my book.

I'd much prefer to have:
'Yeah I was told to take that chassis to the scrap yard, but I dropped it off at a mates instead, and my mate sold to to Tom Meade, and he sold it to Piper ...'.

Pete

 

What quote? The one where I say that 003 is a replica P4 chassis modified to carry a P3 engine?

No Jim - What ‘speaks for itself’ is that YOU could even write such a thing. You, with all of 5 years replica P4 experience, as against Piper with nearly 40 years.
The fact that you can totally dismiss a perfectly reasonable explanation of why 003 looks like a P3 chassis – that ‘speaks for itself’.
The fact that you can look at a grainy old photograph and determine that it shows a genuine P3 chassis - that ‘speaks for itself’.
The fact that you superciliously dismiss out-of-hand anyone or anything that doesn't agree with your fantasy - That ‘speaks for itself’.
Nathan

 

Nathan,

I think you are forgetting that Jim (now anyway) owns a car with a genuine P4 chassis ... I imagine he has by now had them side by side and even to somebody like me it would be easy to see the differences.

Now I would not know if the difference meant it was a P3 chassis or NOT, but I would then know that the chassis in #003/0846 is not a P4 chassis built exactly as Ferrari did. Note I am not just talking about around the engine, etc.

I guess when both cars are stripped of their clothes we will be able to see the chassis' bare side by side ...
Pete

 

That would be an explanation as to how Piper got hold of this particular chassis, but without forensic evidence, we will never know for sure that the chassis is #0846. If we do have sufficient forensic evidence, then the mentioned explanation will be obsolete in determining the identity of the chassis in Jim´s car, but very interesting none the less.

Having said that, I am fully aware that in the magical world of buying and selling Ferrari´s of historical importance, provenance is a MAJOR issue.

 

Pete,
It isn't "a P4 chassis built exactly as Ferrari did" because IT HAS BEEN MODIFIED. The claim is that it's a P3 chassis, therefore it needs to be compared to another P3 chassis.
Nathan

 

check your PM!
Tom

 

412P methinks..

 

WHICH YOU'RE NOT !!

You call that provenance? This is merely a fantasy without any proof/evidence to back it up. TRUE provenance is backed up by evidence.
Look at the word provenance - part of it is very important – PROVEN-ance. That's not fiction, not fantasy, not conjecture. It's proof, evidence.
Your double standards are scary. Anything Piper says (e.g. 003 is based on a replica 330P4) can be ignored, but anything you say - even unverified junk like the story above - must be accepted, must be gospel. Pulleeze !!
Nathan
PS –If you insist on bringing this crapyard fantasy up again then I will insist on reposting the still unanswered questions from Post #16 of this thread. Put up or Shut up!

 

Yes, but the chassis is P4.

 

Are you for real? Apart from the content of your post (I´m sorry, a P3chassis is not a P4chassis, nor is a P4chassis, modified to accept a P3engine, a P3chassis modified to P4-specifications), your tone is way out of line.

I for one can´t remember Jim demanding me to share his views. He was kind enough to send me his documents for me to see and to interpret. I think he deserves a little more respect.

 

Slightly off center question.

There was (or is) only one modified P3/4?

Ferrari only did this to one chassis/frame/whatever?

Reason I ask is I stumbled on a picture in a '67 Road and Track of what was called a modified P3/4 that has no top, and a tiny windshield for, I think, "C7" racing?

I'll bring the mag to work tomorrow and scan the pic and post it.

Dave

 

yup.

 

So this iteration is the same car, just re-bodied?

How many different looks did this one chassis have before it was over?

DM

 

This is what I asked a few posts ago, "Granted it's not a P4; how sure are we it was a P3?"

JG responed by referring me to post #422 in this thread. This post has some detail about why he says it's built to P3 specs, not P4 as Piper has claimed.

Unless you can take elements from post #422 and refute them, this question has been asked and answered.

Ken

 

It only ran as a spyder. Jim has rebuilt it as a berlinetta.

 

Sounds like a CanAm?
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Indeed Canam. I believe #0846 didn´t ran in Canam. Could it be #0858?
There´s a nice article about Ferrari and Canam in the august issue of Forza.

 

Nathan

First things first. Very carefully read paragraph 10 of this post. If you wish I can take your reckless disregard for the truth to the next stage.

The photo you posted and other's David gave me ABSOLUTELY PROVE THAT 0003/0846 IS A P3 CHASSIS THAT HAS BEEN MODIFIED TO ACCEPT A P4 ENGINE NOT A P4 CHASSIS THAT HAS BEEN MODIFIED TO ACCEPT A P3 ENGINE. THE PHOTO I RECENTLY POSTED WHICH IS CRYSTAL CLEAR PROVES IT AS WELL. IT'S OVER. THE WORLD IS NOT FLAT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU SAY IT IS. DAVID WAS, IS, AND REMAINS WRONG.

Explain why David would have also changed a chassis built to" P4 plans" by among other things lengthening it, narrowing it, changing the shock mounts, etc., etc. to P3 measurements and configuration, things totally unnecessary to mount a P3 engine into a chassis built to "P4 Plans" ?

I have now inspected and measured three P3 chassis.
0844, 0850, and 0854 WHICH I OWN. 0846,0844,0850, and 0854 chassis are P3 chassis and it is proveable fact that their measurements and configuration are the same. I have also inspected and measured P4 0856 and Macca has photographed and inspected all P4 aspects of 0900 and 0900a and confirmed that they are identical to P4 0856.

You have confirmed that David believes 0003/0846, chassis was made to "P4 Plans/ Blueprints"
David has stated and confirmed this at least four times over a period of 18 years.

Thanks to you there is NO dispute that David believes they were.

As you also know Max Wakefield has confirmed David told him/believes the same thing as well.
"They are of the same batch" (0003/0846, 0900, 0900a)
Max

Thanks to you, and I realize you are very upset that you turned out to be the one that proved it beyond the shadow of any doubt, both David and Max have been proven are wrong and anyone who wishes to prove that they are has been and still is invited to come and measure 0003/0846's and now 0854's P3 chassis and confirm this fact for themselves.

Instead of talking, measure and compare P3 chassis and P4 chassis for yourself and compare them to 0003/0846. The physical chassis and the MANY DIFFERENCES between P3 and P4 chassis, exist, can and have been measured, and as you well know for many years I have and still invite inspection by one and all.

Your statement that my invitation to Ferrari S.p.A. which is clearly stated in my email to them which I sent you long before you posted that my invitation was a "smokescreen" proves your "smokescreen" posting is untrue and your posting such nonsense clearly show a reckless disregard for the truth.

As for David's photo which you posted anyone can see for themselves. Save the photo. Put it into a photo program. Add contrast and brighten. Zoom in. Compare your photo with the photo of P3 0844's P3 motor mounted in P3 0844's P3 chassis on page 68. Thanks for posting and thanks for playing.

 

Walter Medlin's P4 is the CanAm car.

Top o' the morning to all, let's try to keep it civil here, Nathan Beehl, you are the "new Guy" to this argument.........and this is not a Court of Law.

It's a bunch of Ferrari car guys, chattin' on the Internet.

It all means about as much as the wind, now whistling thru the remains of the New Orleans World Trade Center, where we all enjoyed such a fine dinner and mutual interest in Ferraris, only last year.......

Let's keep all this in perspective please.

"Is my helicopter gassed up yet?? Thanks!"

ttyl.

 

BIG MAN !! I bet you think you are really tough !!
Nathan

 

Why the anger and the hate? Not hugged enough as a kid?

 

What is with you 0846-disbelievers that makes you take this to a personal level? What exactly is the frustration? It is not that you sold a priceless Ferrari, thinking it was a mere replica? Is it?

 

One P3 and two P4's were converted to Can Am's by Ferrari. 0844 was converted to a 330 Can Am. It's body was changed but it's chassis remained unmodified P3 and it's engine remained P3. Symbolic replaced 0844's Can Am Body with a coupe body they acquired from David Piper.

0858 was converted by Ferrari to a 350 Can Am. 0858 was built on a P4 Chassis. Today it still has it's Can Am Body and it's bored out, 330 to 350, P4 Can Am engine. 0858's original P4 spyder body is currently owned by me and mounted on (P3) 412 0854. This will be corrected when I mount 0854's original coupe tail and doors on 0854.

0860 was converted to a 350 Can Am by Ferrari. It was converted back to a spyder bodied P4 by it's current owner, utilising a body obtained from David Piper. So far as I know it's engine remains 350 bored out from 330 P4.

The last P4, and there were only three original P4's, 0856 remains with it's original P4 chassis, original P4 engine, and the spyder P4 body which it wore at it's last race rather that it's P4 coupe body that it ran at Le Mans.

There was only ONE P3 CHASSIS THAT WAS CONVERTED BY FERRARI TO ACCEPT A P4 ENGINE. P3/P4 0846.