The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

One time, in a dumpster, I found a bill of sale/receipt with serial numbers for a .38 pistol. SOMEWHERE out there, that pistol still exists. Does this mean that I'm the owner because I have the bill of sale in my hands?

 

I couldn't find this in the ~128 pages of info presented by JG on 0846:

Why does it matter what Arlie and Nathan or anyone else believes?

Seriously - almost 30 pages of the same answers to never ending questions and accusations from people who's opinion doesn't seem to matter. I know from reading through this thread and the document that these aren't the first 30 pages on this debate either - it seems to have been going on for several years now since JG discovered he had more than a replica P4 chassis in his hands.

Why? Will someone sleep better at the end of the day when 'Horsefly' finally rolls over and believes what that document and all this other testimony seems to prove?

Honestly, I would think this crowd in particular would have more productive, and likely more profitable things they could be doing with their time than arguing endlessly over this beautiful car.

>8^)
ER

 

Hello,


0860's original Can Am body is displayed next to the car in Pierre's private museum with period pictures of the two racing "lifes".

I wish every Ferrari fan to visit it one day ...

All the best.


Florent

 

Oh, it doesn't matter what piloti or whoever "believes" - we're just torturing them for sport.

 

This is more entertaining than a good Agatha Christie story. Its got it all.

Fast cars, wealthy people, stealthy sightings 30 years ago, Irreconcileable (sp?) stories.

Hollywood couldn't make stuff like this up.

I don't KNOW what Jim has in his garage, but it sure does not match what David Piper says he sold Jim.

Eliminate the Impossible and what ever remains, however unlikely, is the truth.

Erich

Personally I think this is a case of Karma balancing for Jim. He uncovered the truth about his GT40. He told the world what he owned was not as special a car as what he paid for.

 

It just seems to give too much credibilty to their claims to respond to them at every step. Hasn't everything that can be said with certainty (based on current evidence available) already been mentioned, discussed and debated to the bitter end?

If a couple of people refuse to believe it, I see no reason to continue entertaining their arguments with response after response. Let the facts speak for themselves and the naysayers can go flounder in the corner.

>8^)
ER

 

A few comments and a possible solution:

1. Those most strongly arguing against 003 = 0846 are either going off on tangents to never never land (Arlie) and therefore are not taken seriously or quickly become vitriolic rather than maintaining a civil discourse (originally Paul S. and now Nathan). If you disagree with someone’s position, don’t take it personally, take a deep breath and either walk away or politely explain why they are wrong. You have many valid points but are losing credibility during delivery (not to mention, angering those that can afford to unleash lawyers on a whim).

2. We have a letter (in another thread) from Count Volpi, explaining how things were back then. If this attitude applies to Mr. Piper, then serial numbers and detailed history were unimportant to him compared to lap times, engine condition and suspension setups. Therefore, I suspect that he would more clearly remember the handling characteristics in a particular race rather than why one weld looked slightly different from another.

3. I've seen a lot of detailed shots of chassis sections but have never seen side by side complete chassis layout comparisons. From what I've read, the differences are obvious for those in the know yet subtle enough for Mr. Piper not to know that this chassis was different from the other two. There is an additional claim that Mr. Piper modified the chassis that it could use either a P3 or a P4 engine. We also have a reference that a chassis was marked 0846 in 1977 while in Mr. Piper's possession. At this point 1 + 1 does not equal 2. Either Mr. Glickenhaus is reaching too far with his interpretations or the third party comments of Mr. Piper's description of the history of his 003 car are not historically accurate. If there is there and section of the forward chassis that is different between a P3 and a P4, one group may be able to discredit the other.

The only possibility, that I can come up with, that incorporates all of these bits of information and makes any sense is that Mr. Piper asked for the modifications to the P4 design to be made when he ordered the chassis in the first place. If this was the case, then it makes perfect sense that the chassis of 0846 was fixed then delivered with the two new ones and Mr. Piper didn't realize it was anything other than what he ordered. The fact that a bulkhead had an 0846 label wouldn't seem out of place considering Mr. Piper had bits of all of the P cars and it was his own version of a P3/4. To validate this possibility, we need to know when Mr. Piper decided to modify the chassis (after delivery or before).

Regards,

Art S.

 

What facts are you referring to? The "fact" that alleges that the chassis was somehow carted out of the Modena junkyard at some unknown time by some unknown mystery person, then made its way to some unknown chassis maker who sold it to Piper who never noticed what he was paying for? And at which point in the variable chain do the "facts" account for the 30 missing years of time and provenance. Sincerely, Skeptical Horsefly.

 

Peloton 25 (Erik),

Actually, progress has been made and a few new facts have emerged while we have gone around in circles and down blind paths that Arlie leads us down. Why do we do it? Because its interesting and fun and occasionally we make forward progress. An oyster makes a pearl because it is irritated.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. Arlie, look at it another way, this is Piper chassis 003 with a known continuous history back to 1974. The question is, in 1974 was this a new P4 chassis identical to 0900 and 0900a or was it a modified chassis. If it was already modified (on Mr. Piper’s orders or otherwise) when Mr. Piper took possession, could it have a history prior to 1974?

 

That's a good way to look at it. Anyway, merely out of curiosity: What is the documented history of 003 from 74 to Jim buying it? Piper was racing it, so in my book that counts as racing heritage/pedigree (of course 0846 Le Mans and TF history is cooler, but still). Where did it participate and what did it achieve?

PS: Jim, did you ever realize, that you (at least) have now 002 and 003? Cute, ain't?

 

Nope, but if the current owner of that gun wanted to trace its origin, and you had the bill of sale and knew of the search for truth, it would prove invaluable.

The gun, either way, would still be a gun, with the same serial number as it came out of the factory with.

Unless of course, it was involved in a fire, and the serial number was burned off, and it was tossed in the dumpster, only to be found years later by a collector of guns.

Then, it would STILL BE THE SAME GUN. Even after the collector repaired it.

HOWEVER, AT NO TIME WOULD YOU HAVE OWNED THE GUN, RIGHT???

Arlie, you're makin' us crazy here.

DM

 

DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNAH!

That is his reason and focus.

Erich
Illegitimi non carborundum

 

We can hope. Use it.
Oh, and Wayne...My thread was useless, yet you let a witless anencephalic continue to disrupt this thread ad nauseum? Are you enjoying the juxtaposition of reasoned discourse and OT idiocy, or does he have a picture of someone with a goat??
Many have had this problem over and over with these threads, and the "mods" (I use the term loosely) just continue to allow the "I know you are but what am I?" paradox run ad infinitum.
Can't wait to hear anyone's response to it. Probably deserves it's own "sticky thread". Can't "pollute" this one with anything other than Horsefly's ****.
Mire well, friends, but someone needs to muck this stall.

 

Some act as if this debate is settled here it's confirmed to the whole Ferrari community, not true. Maybe 100 actual Ferrari owner posters here and a few knowledgeable enthusiests as well, a very small 0.5% of the Ferrari community is here, and don't discount Nathan's credibilty either he has authored several books on vintage Ferrari race cars, the 512 series comes to mind.

It's an interesting debate and if it was true 0846 ended up in a junk yard it's quite ironic. Maybe Piper saw the remains of 0846 in a junk pile for a while and had been eyeing it and borrowed it to help make his replicas then decided to make it into a P3/4 also when finished with making them, being he borrowed it he never could admit to what it really was after all it was just scrap as far as Ferrari was concerned, then maybe Piper modified the rear subframe on this car similar to his 365 P2/3 he had to accept the P3 motor which would explain the differences between the P4 chassis.

The only way this car will be truly accepted is if David Piper explains exactly what happened with this car or a select group of accredited recognized Ferrari experts thouroughly examine the car and form a consensus on it.

 

I'm wrong ... corrections in bold. Jim has informed me that #0854 while a 412P has a P3 chassis not a P4 chassis.

Pete

 

And don't take anything that I say seriously. I know nothing about researching old cars. I only "imagined" that I've spent many days down at the local DMV having mounds of old title records dug up on old Corvettes, musclecars, and other such searches for "provenance" from decades ago. Some of which I did for other people who wanted a full history of their cars. And I'm sure I must have dreamed up that B-17 bomber, serial number 44-83724, that I researched that crashed in Greenland in 1948 while trying to rescue the crew of a downed C-47. I must have fantasized about that packet of info that I received from Norton Air Force Base in California many years ago concerning the "provenance" of that plane. Not to mention the letter from the Air Force where they used the term "written off" to describe planes that crashed before the date around 1961 when fire destroyed many of their old records. And it must have been a hazy dream when I was talking on the phone to SCCA historian Harry Handley about 15 years ago when I was trying to compile a list of the known 1967 L-88 Corvette serial numbers with help from his records; which was years before anything called the internet. And of course it doesn't matter that back in 1967, I was standing by the side of the road watching MGs, Corvettes, Ferraris, and others roar their way up the local hill climb course. And let's ignore the hundreds of hours spent prowling the junkyards and other snake infested, forgotten resting places of old cars while looking for that needed part or diamond in the rough.
Ignore me. I know nothing concerning the search for history and provenance of old cars and other rare items.

 

What ever happened to the discrete wire transfer to numbered Swiss bank accounts way of accomplishing such things? What is the world coming too?

 

Ahh, the old provenance for a price routine...

 

Nathan, et al:

Me thinks that it might be time to tone down the rhetoric. I’m not going to pretend that I have known Jim Glickenhaus forever and day. Nor am I going to pretend that I’m his protector or spokesman. He neither needs my protection or help.

However, I do know Jim well enough to know that he says what he means and means what he says. Before moving on, please re-read this sentence. Jim Glickenhaus says what he means and means what he says. He is NOT your typical Internet BS artist. There are some folks at Daimler Chrysler who had to learn this the hard way.

Jim has a theory about his car. Simply put, both he and David Piper thought that he was buying one of Mr. Piper’s P4 reproduction chassis. While going through the restoration process, Jim started noticing things that lead him to believe that he had actually purchased the guts of #0846.

Being the kind of guy that he is, Jim laid out his suspicious, initially on the Internet, and ultimately in a handout that he has made freely available for the asking. Unfortunately, many of the experts who have commented negatively on his theory apparently have never taken the time to read Jim’s book, which, I’m sure, has frustrated him.

Even worse, some have said privately to me (I’m not including you, Nathan, in this group) that they have based their rejection of Jim’s theory on the belief that David Piper would have never made such a mistake. When asked about the details of Jim’s assertions (i.e., the P3/P4 argument), the typical response is that somebody must have faked the chassis.

So if Jim Glickenhaus appears to be gaining a thin skin about this issue, perhaps you can understand why. Jim may be a lot of things (including being obsessed about this car), but he is not trying to pull the wool over anybody’s eyes or defraud anyone.

He is also serious as a heart attack about why he believes the this car might be #0846. So let’s show a little respect here. You don’t have to buy Jim Glickenhaus’s argument. But let’s not get personal.

DISCLAIMER: I think all you guys, including Jim, are really weird for getting so bent out of shape about a car. Me, I made my mind up at Monterey last year. I saw Jim’s car at the pits at Laguna Seca. I also saw Mr. Lawrence Stroll’s car on the lawn at Pebble. Both are really cool cars. But, my personal opinion was that Jim’s car was the real deal. Mr. Stroll’s car was very pretty, but I doubt that it ever looked that good back in the day.

You see, I don’t give a hoot about the history of these cars. All I care about is the here and now. The providence of a car doesn’t mean squat to me. Even fake old Ferrari race cars are out of my price range. I just like to drive em if I can, and hear/see them when I can’t.

Dale

 

The Nazis confisacted billions of dollars worth of paintings, jewelry and other treasures, and very few of the items have ever turned up. A lot of the items were stolen by members of US military. I believe the real 846 is hidden away in the same vault below the pentagon as most of the other stuff, and the president, who is a secret member of the Knights Teplar has the only key.

See, I can come up with silly theories too

 

Put the bottle down Stu.

 

I feel the same way about Fake cars as I do about Fake Breasts.

"I prefer factory originals, but when I'm buried up to my ears in them, I don't give a sh*t!" ©

 

Art
Pete

Why would David also modify every detail of a chassis "Built to P4 Plans/Blueprints" including things that have no bearing on mounting a P3 engine into it? The length of the chassis from P4 to P3? The width of chassis from P4 to P3. The shock tower mounts from P4 to P3? Change the triangulation of the REAR LOWER engine mount triangle from P4 to P3? If 0003/0846 was built to "P4 Plans/Blueprints" WHICH IT'S NOT these are but a few of the things you would have to change. 0003/0846 was built to "P4 Plans/Blueprints and then the entire chassis was modified to P3 configuration and measurements in every detail? I don't think that happened.

0846's P3 chassis is the same as 0854's P3 chassis except for the modifications described in Ferrari's Technical Data sheets that were done to one P3 chassis: 0846, necessary to shorten it's wheel base by 12mm and mount a P4 engine into it, making it UNIQUE. Both 0846,and 0854's P3 chassis are the same and they are different than 0856's P4 chassis and 0900 and 0900a's chassis WHICH WERE BUILT TO P4 PLANS/BLUEPRINTS.

The Good Things In Life Remain The Same.

 

Yes, the Can Am body was on 0844 and the current owner has it . As far as Ferrari are concerned, 0844 is a 412 P .
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