The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Agree 100%

I don't know Napolis from squat; he might be well known in the US, but I'm not from the US, and had never heard of him prior to joining this forum. I have NO vested interest in declaring 0846 real or fake. I've read Napolis' dossier, and the claims and counter-claims displayed in this thread, and if I were a fact-finder in a legal proceeding, applying the civil standard of proof (i.e on the balance of probabilities), I would accept Napolis' evidence and argument. I can't say 100% (I wasn't there at all the key moments: who was?), but he does present a compelling case. Unless he has perpetrated a monumental fraud, which I firmly believe he has NOT (I believe that beyond a reasonable doubt, the criminal standard), I think given all the evidence, Napolis' car is 0846 in the way which counts. Provenance ain't perfect; how many old race cars have that perfect provenance? Not all, that's for sure. I also think he has defended himself admirably, against some pretty snide attacks.

Just my humble opinion.

 

is this your sick brain exploding ?
i thought, its a ferrari chat ??!?!

 

........ maybe there is a real Ferrari driver that could give the car in question a few fast laps of a circuit and maybe say 'yes this feels like the real deal'. Such a man lives back in his homeland of New Zealand. He has impeccable credentials and could start a new chapter in this story ...........

 

.................and has been the subject of the Web's longest-ever forum thread, in another place!


And I've got a photo of 0846 at Le Mans in 1967, signed by the man himself when he came to Goodwood in 1997..................


Paul M

 

I believe that happened already this summer in Sicily (page 121). Welcome to FChat btw!

348Spider: I believe that is a scene from "Scanners". Wonderful B-movie horror flick from the seventies (?) and IMHO quite adequate for someobody following this entire discussion. At least that's how I feel sometimes.

 

If you read pages 115 through 126 of the 0846 Papers you will learn that this is exactly what has already happened. Clay Regazzoni and Nino Vaccarella who, after inspecting my car, asked me to allow Nani Galli to drive my car to determine if it was the "real deal".

I happily agreed and Nani drove my car several times, on the race track at Siracusa and on the first stage of the Historic Targa Florio. Nani also drove the first stage of the Historic Targa Floria in my car with a Cameraman from RIA TV who filmed it for a program that will be aired across Europe this fall. Nani's comments speak for themselves.

Chris, of course, is welcome to inspect and drive my car anytime he wishes and hopefully this will happen. Chris, as did Nino, drove 0846 in anger, on the day. We should remember however, that years later Chris was "reunited" with the "Daytona Winner" for a drive that was featured in an English Car Magazine. The only problem is the car Chris was "reunited" with wasn't the "Daytona Winner". The Daytona Winner was of course P3/P4 0846. The car Chris was "reunited" with was of course P4 0856 which at the time was owned by David Clarke and although painted as the "Daytona Winner" was a completely different car with, a chassis built for Ferrari to "P4 Plans/Blueprints" not one like the Real Daytona Winner which had a chassis built for Ferrari to P3 Plans/Blueprints that was later modified by Ferrari to accept a P4 engine. (Pages 63-79)

 

Jim, could you give more info when you know more about this airing? Sounds like a program not to miss!

Ciao, Peter

 

I will try but they may just send me a copy as I'm in the US. They said sometime this fall. I think the program will be on the Giro di Sicilia-Targa Florio as a warm up to Next Years Event which will the the Centenial.
Best

 

As well as driving 0846 to victory at Daytona and to the barbecue at Le Mans, before the magazine article with him driving 0856 at Oulton Park he had previously driven it in berlinetta form to win the Monza 1000k in 1967; he also drove 0858 at least once in Can-Am spyder form at Surfers Paradise in Australia, and 0860 in both World Championship spyder form at Brands Hatch with Jackie Stewart to clinch the 1967 World Championship and in Can-Am spyder form in various races.

So he's driven all four of the works P4s in anger, in all of their configurations! And they call him unlucky!


BTW, I noticed that in the merging of threads into this one, the original pictures of the type 603 gearbox parts which started it don't seem to be around. I've looked a long way back - are they still around?

Paul M

 

Hi

Yes:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69125

Best

 

..............but not hard enough..............must be because it's Friday.


Incidentally, I think Amon must have done several races in 0858, owned by David Mackay's Scuderia Veloce, which aren't listed in Barchetta; including taking the lap record at Longford, and battling with Frank Matich several times - in 1968?


Paul M

 

Jim,

I don't disagree with you regarding the additional alterations. I'm just trying to grasp the extent of the differences. Its tough to get the big picture from a few closeups.

My other point, which noone addressed is as Mr. Piper claims to have made the modifications, when were they made? If the changes were ordered and prior to Mr. Piper taking possesion, then it easitly merges the two stories and explains why he didn't know what he had. Does anyone have the answer?

Regards,

Art S.

 

Hi

This winter you and others are welcome to see the difference between a P3 chassis and one built to "P4 plans" for yourself. There are many and a chassis built to "P4 Plans" cannot be turned into a P3 chassis without massive amounts of work, work totally unnecessary to mount a P3 engine into a P4 chassis. One Simple unboltable triangle reversed from the way that Ferrari used one to mount a P4 engine into a P3 chassis will do.

One other important point. When David wanted to mount a P4 engine into 0003/0846 THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID. HE USED A SMALL UNBOLTABLE TRIANGLE JUST AS FERRARI DID IN DECEMBER 1966. HE DID NOT CHANGE THE LOCATION OF THE CHASSIS MOTOR MOUNTS.

Best

 

I'm more interested in what Alberto Pedretti might have to say. After all, he was there and saw the car as it was in Piper's possession.

What is Alberto Pedretti saying about the theory that the car is 0846????

Has anybody contacted him during the "great debate"???

From page 14 of JG's document

 

Jim,

I hope this means you will be bringing both cars to the Cavallino Classic? Man, one can only hope!!

 

No

This winter both cars will be apart and comparable. We'll be fitting 0854's original coupe tail and doors and restoring 0846 to it's proper spyder configuration. Those willing to travel are welcome.

As for Cavallino John has written me that as 0846 is not authenticated by Ferrari it's not allowed to be displayed at Cavallino even in a non judged capacity.

As I said years ago, (Page 63) by Ferrari's requiring the original chassis plate for their authentication program, it's impossible for 0846 to be authenticated under Ferrari's current authentication program so that cannot happen.

Marcel asked this question after the last Cavallino and I answered it then. Nothing new.

Best

 

I need a rest from the situation on the Gulf Coast so it's back to #0846.

Jim's comment above is what really sticks in my craw. Maybe you believe Mr. Glickenhaus's version of what happened, or maybe you don't. However, anybody who has seen this car can't deny that it is very cool car.

It just chaps my behind that the "powers that be" insist on protecting me from seeing this car. Why, I might be so taken under by this car that I'll whip out my checkbook and insist upon paying many billions for it (sic).

Why can't this car run at the Historics at Laguna Seca?

Why can't this car be on the lawn at Pebble?

Why can't this car be on the lawn at Cavallino?

I thought at the end of the day that we are all Car Guys (with one or two Car Gals thrown in for fun).

Granted, the Factory has said that according to its records (double sic) that, "We threw the damna thinga awaya."

What else could they say? After all, this is what their records reflect.

I guess that none of you hung around car and bike shops in your misspent youth. Well, I did. I can't tell you how much crap we hauled out of garage bins. This is not to mention finding old sunken boats and stray dogs.

Actually, I'm disappointed. All you anal types are starting to sound like Porsche types, may God help thier souls.

Dale

 

Jim,

At the end of this process (assuming we get to a definitive end, and I for one do hope so, whatever the answer) will you weld a chassis tab/plate on her?, so that it will from then on be known based on the chassis number.

Thus either: Piper #003 or 0846 ... or even 'Jim Special'

Pete

 

I have spoken to both Jim & Sal and they both know they have an open invitation to show both cars at Pocono during Le Belle Macchine d'Italia June 23 - 26 2006.

The event is 90 miles from NYC. If Jim would like to, there will be opportunity for the cars to be examined while on displayed at the Concorso d'Eleganza & they can also driven at high speed on the long straights of Pocono International Raceway. There will be over 350 other Italian cars participating.

Complete details on the event www.italiancarsatpocono.com

Joe

 

Interesting for me to see the pictures of 6c3000CM Zagato spider on the field at Pebble Beach with a 1600cc 4-cylinder 1960s motor in it.

 

Or a couple of other cars that have been rebuilt from tach needles...