The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

No Jim's is a real Ferrari......Not a POS Fiero with a bodykit

 

Well, it's hard to explain, but this thread is to discuss discoveries of the most interesting nature on a car that was thought "lost" or rather "written off"....

It's more like the stories where, when under cleaning, a rare painting is found underneath a less valuable work, by an art museum.......

Unlike a lot of people, the Owner has opened up "what he knows" in an attempt to ask the WHOLE rest of the world "what they know".....pretty rare, I'd say...

And maybe you could search "0846" on here, this is only ONE of several threads where the car is discussed and restored.

I've seen it, it's cool.....we didn't start it, 'cuz his daughter was hiding in it taking a nap!

 

LOL! I wonder what would be the "Buy it Now" price?

 

Ask Bruce McCaw, he'll know.............

 

Since nobody else answered your question seriously, and even though I am one of the main antagonists of this grand debate, here's the quick scoop.

This entire debate is discussing whether or not the car owned and restored by Napolis is THE same P4 Ferrari that raced at LeMans in 1967 by Chris Amon. That car was serial number 0846. During the intervening years, that car has always been assumed to have been destroyed by fire when the left rear wheel went flat and was being driven down the course toward the pit area. The tire caught on fire and burned the left rear of the car. Photos of the car exist that clearly show that it was NOT totally destroyed at all.

Fast forward 30 years or so until Napolis buys a car that, according to his documentation, bears many similarities of chassis design to the 0846 car that raced at LeMans. No difinitive serial number or stampings exist.

And the debate rages on with a cast of characters and antagonists that rival a Hollywood epic.

Does that about sum it all up in a nut shell?

 

it seems very long long thread about this car 0846

why this car don't be sent to the Maranello's Expert they have all archive
concerning the production car.
they will can regularised and clarified this situation.

 

Darn, Horsefly I was tryng to sum it up as well..

The car HAS been returned to the Factory, IIRC.....they have supproted the resto effort with remade parts but have not weighed in with the Official Blessing to the best of my knowledge...

They don't care about my old 308GTBs either, but HAVE restarted the Rosso Ferrari subscription, at the minimum!!!!!!

Once they load them into Your Garage at the website, and confirm the colors, they move on .....to making the F1 gearboxes work..........LOL!

 

This isn't a "production car", and Enzo's mistress cleaned her fingernail polish off on many occasions with the race department documentation..

It's all smeared red and smells like acetone, you can't read squat anymore on them........

 

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that part/most of the frame is authentic. The fact the car/frame has a huge gap in time from the crash to it's discovery many years later in the shop of a famous replica builder leaves some to doubt how it could be authentic. The builder always represented the car as a replica, seemingly unaware he had the real deal at least as far as the frame. This too has some people doubting it.

The debate rages on; as a disinterested spectator my money is on it being 0846's frame in spite of the questions. There are too many unique features of it that only a dedicated forger would undertake, and even then it would be virtually impossible to accomplish.

Ken

 

Wow! Arlie, very consise and correct summary. Well put!

Regards,

Art S.

 

i wasn t find the good words.

there s 4 months in French press magasin they will drop a line about this guys
I thought they re work not for Ferrari but for FBI or something like that...
it was really impressioning to see they're investigations ,
they can reconize 60 Ferrari cars which one was suspected

About the 0486 this car seems "dead" in 1968, motor and most of pieces
for rebuild the sn 0900 of David piper and after use the chassis for build the 250 p5 prototypo...

may be this man make a miracle.
i mean a resurection.
Amen

 

Amen, indeed!!!!!

"It is what it is.......pretty!"

 

pretty yes

 

I was wondering what happened to the Emilia Earhart and Bigfoot pieces?

 

You just can't argue with the great ape of the American northwest.
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The chassis remains of 0846 were definitely not used to build 250 P5. That is absolute fact confirmed by physical measurement and inspection of my car by Pininfarina. Pininfarina has unequivably confirmed that I am right about that. After inspecting my car Pininfarina shipped my car back to the US. The the bill of lading they prepared for US Customs clearly listed the chassis number of my car as 0846. That is also fact. Discussions with Ferrari S.p.A. continue. The following is another summary that contains a link to more information and this thread. (Arlie's is quite good as well)


330 P4
1967 saw the ultimate mid-engined 330 P, the 330 P4. With a 3-valve cylinder head added to the P3's fuel injection system, output was up to 450 hp (335 kW). Only four were ever made. Due to its great fame, more than a hundred P4 replicas of various design have been built.

The 330 P4 electrified the racing world when three of the four crossed the finish line together (in first, second, and third place) in the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona and became a symbol of victory over arch-enemy Ford. Surprisingly the 330 P4 had poor aerodynamics even in comparison with its rivals, but its sexy looks continue to grab attention.

One of the original cars 0846 which was built as a P3 by Ferrari in 1966 and modified by Ferrari in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine while retaining it's P3 chassis and nose was said to be totaled in a racing accident and discarded afterwards, another is in a French automobile museum, another is held by a Canadian collector, and the fourth (owned by American Walter Medlin) was set to be auctioned off in March 2005 to pay for back taxes before the owner came up with US$3 million to protect it.

Recently the P 3/4 that was thought to be destroyed, chassis no. 0846, resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast Jim Glickenhaus, the former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although when he bought it, both he and the person he bought it from thought it was a replica chassis, after removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a,and 0090c he discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original chassis of 0846.

"After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications."

XVII Giro di Sicilia Official Program

In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote: "We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident."

Glickenhaus has never disputed this but believes that the remains of 0846, including 80+% of it's original chassis survived and that those and other remains of 0846 are currently in the car that he owns.

The following link explains the basis for Glickenhaus' beliefs.

http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf

This debate has raged throughout 2004 among various Ferrari enthusiasts.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69585

"A letter from Ferrari S.p.A. - dated September 29th, 2004:

Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846

Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,

We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail.

The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4.

We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846.

If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped.

Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case.

We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.

Yours faithfully Ferrari Classiche

Umberto Masoni"

This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion.

For many years this is ALL and EXCATLY what Glickenhaus posited happened:That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts.

He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them.

Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible.

Some very interesting information recently came to light that will soon be added to the 0846 papers.
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Sorry, I had to throw that one in for effect. However, if that is J.G.'s garage in the aft ground in the photo above......I like it!!!!!

Okay, so the car isn't a Fiero chassis. But the bulk of the vehicle certainly does seem to be compiled from period spares and castoffs. Still all boils down to that non existant VIN plate. Round and round it goes. Again and again.

Now in the modern world of aerospace and ISO 900x etc., once we lose control of a piece of machinery whether physically or merely by documentation, it no longer exists. Go try and sell a lump of metal to Boeing without the proper numbers stamped in along with the docs and tell em it's just fine to go ahead and make a critical part from thereof.

In my humble opinion of course to keep the Kerry supporters from suing me

Steve

 

The building in the background of the last shot is where Sergio started.
The building in the background of this shot is where dreams are turned into art...
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Horsey, this is why we all love ya man. Yeah, your skepticism wears thin on occasion, but you do have your moments. You may be a horse's behind, but you are OUR horse's behind.

Dale

 

There is a big difference between ISO 900x and northern Italy circa 1967...

 

only one question?
the actual owner of this car is Mr Glickenhaus?

 

of 0846, yes .

 

Well. thats the Big Debate, isn't?

 

I rarely quote en suite - but, this bears repeating

Therefore, you were right all along.

*Ace Ventura victory dance*

 

thanks,