The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 133 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Both. I thought the hall of classics had a lot of interesting cars and I met an interesting group of people. I went to a dinner with a bunch of car guys that was filmed for speed. Not sure if it was aired. Our discussion was sort of free flowing. I also enjoyed the lectures by designers and the student exhibits. It was an educational auto show.
     
  2. eldorado

    eldorado Karting

    Dec 28, 2005
    110
    Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Andy Cox
    I have not seen it aired, but I saw an article by Tom Hnatiw from Dream Car Garage talking about your cars while searching to see whos they were. I really enjoyed the student section as well. I thought the "Rolls room" was great too.

    Too keep on track with the thread, though, I'm curious do you find it frustrating that Ferrari does not recognize 0846 officially? Or is it an uderstanding that as a large high profile company there are certain lines that need to be towed? If this question has been asked and answed already, just direct me to the posting...
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Nathan,

    I did not 100% say that ... I said the block was a P4 type. Now Piper has a stock pile of parts and wants to make an engine. Do you really think he is going to stuff around looking at the minor casting rib differences when he is trying to make a whole engine?

    Piper is a racer, not a historian ... he would (I assume) simply have gone:
    - Yep I have a block.
    - Yep I have a crank and 12 pistons.
    - Yep I have a couple of heads, and inlet systems ...

    Fantastic I can make another engine and lets GO RACING!

    I think the thing that most miss (and in some ways I respect Piper more for this) is that Piper (I believe) still sees his cars WITHOUT the rose tinted Ferrari is everything BS glasses ... he just sees great old race cars and uses his collection of bits to keep them going. I doubt whether he gives a toss about their value (to us) because the value to him is driving them HARD (and atleast he runs his 250LM with a replica body, so the purests don't have heart attacks ... when he kisses a wall ;) ).

    Thus like I said he made a 3 litre engine which equals F1 ... he did not waste his time getting down on his knees and study each casting rib while praying to some Ferrari god (with tears running done his cheeks) that it was the right block.

    Pete
    ps: Jim (and Nathan), please note I am not inferring that you are a Ferrari blind blubbering fool(s) either ... you were simply doing research.
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    This IMO is a fair summary:

    Controversy around chassis no. 0846

    One of the original cars, 0846, which was built as a P3 by Ferrari in 1966 and modified by Ferrari in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine while retaining it's P3 chassis and nose, was said to be totaled in a racing accident and discarded afterwards. Another is in a French automobile museum, while yet another is held by a Canadian collector, and the fourth (owned by American Walter Medlin) was set to be auctioned off in March 2005 to pay for back taxes before the owner came up with US$3 million to protect it.

    Recently the P 3/4 that was thought to be destroyed resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast Jim Glickenhaus, the former movie director and stock exchange magnate. When he bought it, both he and the person he bought it from thought it was a replica chassis. After removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a, and 0900c he discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original chassis of 0846.

    "After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications."

    XVII Giro di Sicilia Official Program

    In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote: "We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident." Glickenhaus has never disputed this but believes that the remains of 0846, including 80+% of it's original chassis survived and that those and other remains of 0846 are currently in the car that he owns.

    The following link [1] explains the basis for Glickenhaus' beliefs. This debate [2] has raged throughout 2004 among various Ferrari enthusiasts.

    A letter from Ferrari S.p.A., dated September 29th, 2004, Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846:

    Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,

    We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.

    Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"

    This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and EXCATLY what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them. Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible.
     
  5. eldorado

    eldorado Karting

    Dec 28, 2005
    110
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    Andy Cox
    Thanks, Napolis. I have now read this thread from the beginning through till today. lots to take in.
     
  6. eldorado

    eldorado Karting

    Dec 28, 2005
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    Andy Cox
    From what I have read about D. Piper, I would think that PSK has hit the nail on the head here. I certainly have never met or had any interaction with the man however, so It's really just speculation.

    At any rate, it has been said before but beautiful car. Glad to see it is actually a driver too. The photos from Italy with 002C where amazing.
     
  7. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    Having met Piper last year I would say Pete got it right. Not that I know him that well, just from looking at what kinda guy he is.

    I admire Piper for still racing his cars just as I applaud Jim for doing the same around Sicily. Racing is what Enzo built them for.
     
  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #3308 Napolis, Jan 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We recently purchased several original P4 wheels that are the proper size unlike the 350 Can Am Wheels currently on 0846 which will enable us to correct that situation.

    This is 0854 original door and paint as last raced in 1967 at Brands Hatch which we're going to try and preserve.
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  9. eldorado

    eldorado Karting

    Dec 28, 2005
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    Andy Cox
    Are those campagnolo wheels then? or did they have several different wheel manufactures? I had thought P3's and4's used magnesium campagnolo wheels.
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    To put if more clearly regarding prototype Ferraris, I do not believe there is a person on this planet that knows more than Piper about racing, maintaining, race preparing and setting up these prototype Ferraris.

    BUT there are many (including now Jim and Paul [P4Replica], etc.) that I believe know a heck of a lot more regarding the historical correctness of certain prototype Ferraris and their parts ... this is (I believe) not David Piper's interest.

    His LM after all has been modified further than any other and convincingly shows the rest of them it's back side on the race track :)

    Pete
    ps: Love the work as usual Jim (on the tail), etc.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Yes they are.
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    Pete
     
  13. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Pete,
    We've been here before, and we ain't going to agree - so, let's move on.
    OK with you?
    Nathan
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Nathan,

    I'm happy to move on with us disagreeing ... heck no point arguing about something that has no bearing on either of us, BUT if you could just clarify why or what you do not agree on. This might help the research, ie:

    1. Do you not agree with Jim's (and others) finding that there is a difference in casting ribs between a F1 and P4 block?, and thus ...
    2. The P4 has the curved rib and the F1 the straight one?
    3. Do you think (and this is possible) that Ferrari revised their F1 block casting and thus there are 2 different rib types for this period/type of F1 engine? Remember the photos Jim has shown us of his block do NOT match the period photos of F1 engines due to this curved rib ... so something is going on here.
    4. How do we identify a P4 block versus a F1 one? ... if there are no casting differences would deck height be the only difference? We cannot guarantee engine number as I have many times heard of Ferrari making support/backup engines without serial numbers ... in the old days.

    I honestly would have thought (as I have already said) that the deck heights would be very different and thus you could not put a P4 crank in a F1 block (rods would have to be too short, otherwise pistons would jump out the top), but you could put a F1 crank in a P4 block ... obviously the larger engine would/should have the taller deck height.

    Again not trying to argue, just help the research :).
    Pete
     
  15. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    696
    #3315 macca, Jan 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Again, just trying to help the research...

    chronology:
    August 1966 - 36-valve heads with intakes between cams & side exhausts fitted to 1966 F1 cars ready for Monza.

    December 1966 - completely new P4 engine tested at Daytona in updated 0846.
    http://images4.fotki.com/v45/photos/3/34425/222480/1967engine-vi.jpg

    March 1967 - new F1 engine with centre-exhausts as pictured in Jim's dossier page 15 debuted in new chassis at Brands Hatch non-championship F1 race.

    We've been through how the 1967 F1 block and the P4 block have visible differences in the castings.

    Here are a couple of photos of the 1966 F1 car - the engine mounting lugs can be seen on the first photo, of the unveiling in December 1965 (R&T copyright), and one of the mountings can be seen on the Monza paddock 1966 shot (Autocar copyright). So it seems the 1966 F1 engine, even when fitted with the side-exhaust 36-valve heads, had the block with the same engine mountings as the 275/P2 from which it was developed.

    And I don't believe the 1967 centre-exhaust heads were used on the 1966 F1 block at all - as the blocks were so different, I'd doubt they'd fit.

    All of which tends to add further weight to the proposition that Jim's is a P4 engine that had either F1 internals or sports 3-litre internals fitted....and to that David Piper, for all his experience and knowledge which I deeply respect, was WRONG about it being an F1 engine.

    Paul M
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  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Jim,

    I believe you live in New York? ... thus have you been incontact with Francois (can't remember his last name) but he has restored a 312F1 of 1967 vintage, central exhaust, etc. I'm sure you already know of him ... if not visit www.tomyang.net and have a look at August 2002 for the 312F1.

    Fancois used to be involved with LM's and NART ... so could be very useful, especially regarding this lingering F1 engine area.

    Pete
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Francois is a friend and a very good guy.

    Best
     
  18. ArtS

    ArtS F1 World Champ
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    I second that.

    Art S.
     
  19. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
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    That door in itself is a beautiful piece of sculpture.

    john
     
  20. etomcat

    etomcat Karting

    Jul 6, 2004
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    Then you should consider using 846 only on airport runways where fire tenders are standing by both side of the track, full of foam. It would be a disaster to burn that piece of history a second time due to those Mg hot wheels!
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Will def. not try to drive back to the pits it I get a flat.
     
  22. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Likewise.
    I received an email from Mauro Forghieri today. He states, unequivocally, that the 330P4s always ran with 4L engines. He should know.
    Nathan
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    In 66, until December, 0846 didn't have a P4 engine.
     
  24. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Probably because it wasn't a P4 in 1966?
    Nathan
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Exactly. If one were to believe the caption it was a 275 P3. :)

    These are really two different issues. Is it physically possible to build the same block in different displacements and were the P cars raced in different displacements at different races as Wayne S. said they were.

    There is no question that a four liter block can be built as a 3 or 3.3 liter displacement without changing the bore and there is also no question that a 3 liter block cannot be built as a 4 liter without boring it out/changing the heads or raising the deck height with "sandwich plates".

    What Wayne S. said happened would make sense to have happened at the Targa as it would allow one to go an extra lap (Over 40 miles) before refueling. He said it happened. As I've said he could have been wrong, just as Mauro Forghieri was wrong in his email to Bill Wagenblatt. (See page 108 0846 papers).

    People, especially years later, sometimes remember things incorrectly. The important thing is always physical evidence. Rulers don't misremember and in the case cited on page prove Mauro was wrong about the wheelbase of the P3's and P4's being the same.
     

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