The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

And you want to believe the caption?
Nathan

 

Why don't you ask him if any of the 330P3s or the 330P3/4 ran anything other than a 4 liter; when and where....

 

Why would I want to believe the caption? As I've said several times whether or not it's correct is only relevant to what Wayne S. said about different displacements being run at different times in the P cars. In light of Wayne's statement I think it's interesting. No more no less. As I've also said several times it has no bearing what so ever on what my car is or isn't.

As an aside I am not aware of any statement by David Piper that the engine he sold me was anything but what he described in the documents he signed, had notarized and presented to Govermental authorities. (Pages 14 & 15 The 0846 Papers) "1967 FERRARI 330 P4"

I assumed he was simply mistaken about the displacement he attested to it having. Are you saying by stating that David sold me a F1 engine, that you know he was lying on the documents he presented to Governmental Authorities? He was right about it being a P4 Engine. He affirmed in writing it was 330. I'm confused. Are you saying David was wrong about the displacement or lying about it being a P4 engine even though that's what it is?

He was defineately wrong about selling me a 1967 P4 Gearbox. It was of course 0846's 1966 P3 Gearbox and it also true that he was wrong about the chassis he sold me being built to "original 1967 chassis drawings" "that were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in 1974". I have always assumed these were honest mistakes. Are you stating they were intentionally false statements that he knowingly made to me and Govermental Authorities?

 

So what displacement did he attest to, and what does it have if he was mistaken?
Nathan

 

Nathan answer the question I asked. The one you just asked has been asked and answered.

 

This is getting silly AGAIN....the engine displacement situation has NOTHING to do with if this car is the "real" 846 or not. All that matters is the chassis, and I (for one) am convinced the chassis IS the real 846, with restoration.

As to the motor situation, Nathan,
since you know Forghieri, why don't you ask him if the P3s or P3/4 ever ran anything but a 4 liter, and when and when, if they did...

 

Or even if the block is a real P4 block or not.

Nathan, I asked valid questions earlier, why not answer them and provide facts instead of this 'David once said it was a F1 engine' direction ... boring.

Thus IMO it could quite rightly be true that P3/4's and P4's never ran as 3 litres ... but IF the 3 ltr F1 crank will fit in a P4 block you could make a 3 ltr engine, otherwise (if crank won't fit) yes we need to find proof that there once existed a 3 ltr P3/4 or P4 engine.

Pete

 

Stu,

I fail to see the relevance of whether P3s ran at different displacements. The question should be whether P4's ran lower displacement as that is the block we are discussing, to which Nathan stated no.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Exactly, he did NOT describe the engine as a 330P4 - go and read your own document.
He said "an original 1967 Ferrari engine Nr. *0003*, ..."
NO mention of the engine type or capacity!
So what displacement does your engine have?
Nathan

 

Stu,
1) because this discussion is about what happened with P4s
2) if you want to know then why don't you ask him yourself? Do your research like I did.
Do you think that I am going to go to the trouble of finding answers to other questions, just to have others attempt to discredit me or the sources that I quote?
Nathan

 

Pete
We've been here before.
Your questions are all 'could have', 'possibility', speculation.
I provide facts - Forghieri unequivocally stated that the P4s only ever ran 4L engines - and you still ask the same questions. Either accept what Forghieri said, or don't. Your choice.
Nathan

 

Nathan once again you are quite wrong.
By parsing you are showing a reckless disregard for the truth.

The ENTIRE DOCUMENT is under the header:

1967 FERRARI 330 P4

Chassis No. "0003"
Engine No. "0003"
Gearbox No.595A N7

Is there any part of: "330 P4" that you find unclear?

Is there any part of the fact that your question:

"So what displacement does your engine have?"

has been answered several times, by several people, including the person who Luigi Chinetti on his death bed referred to as "The greatest Ferrari Mechanic who ever lived" the person who last rebuilt the engine that is in 0846, and that information has been posted many times in this thread, that you fail to understand?

 

None of this should be in this thread. It was moved here from the Targa thread by a mod because Arlie complained that by mentioning that the caption "275 P3" was interesting in light of Wayne S's previous statements that he had first hand knowledge that P car engines could and were built up and raced as both 3 and 4 liter engines at various races, where at the Targa it would make sense to race a 3 liter car, was me debating outside of the 0846 thread.

There is no question that the engine currently in my car is exactly as discribed in the 0846 papers and that the block is original factory spare P4. None.

As Stu points out the engine is not what matters. The chassis is what matters and he, I and many others feel that has been settled as well.

 

I thought pissing contests were over.

Well, you know how slow I am. Humour me and spell it out in CCs one more time - please.
Nathan

 

Natha (and everyone else, for that matter)

Did I once ever say Nathan was wrong or try to discredit anyone? I have simply stated my OPINION based on what I have seen so far. I have ZERO annimosity toward anyone here, and am simply trying to get to the FACTS. Maybe that is simply not possible, and like with God, all one can have is a belief and opinion.


Nathan: Are you angry with me about something? If so, I appoligize. The only reason I mentioned Forghieri is that he might provide insight as to the 1966 Targa picture labled 275 P, and if it is possible that the caption IS correct.

 

Nathan,

I believe you will have seen in a previous thread long ago that Jim said he had his motor 'rebuilt as a 4-liter'.

Pages 50-54 in the hard copy of Jim's dossier show clearly the differences between a Formula 1 engine and a P4 engine, and pictures of Jim's block and heads confirm they are P4, as well as having the Le Mans stamps.

So the question we are investigating is 'how could internals of a cubic capacity other than 4-liters end up inside what is clearly a P4 engine?'


Paul M

Paul
You mean that the 3L F1 engine that Napilos bought in 003 was actually a genuine P4 engine reduced to 3L?
Nathan

Yes. The block casting ribs are different between the F1 and P4 engines ... Jim's (as he has documented in the 'notes') is of P4 type not F1 type, but the engine was not 4 litres.

While it is possible that a F1 crank ended up in a P4 block, one then wonders what rods have been used?

One has to assume that Ferrari would NOT make a block with a higher than required deck height for their F1 engine and thus the P4 block should have a higher deck height (I believe the bore is the same but the 4 litre engine has a longer stroke). Saying this, this was NOT a good time for Ferrari in F1 and the 3L engine was really a piece of **** for the very high levels required for F1 ... too large and down on power.

Therefore the rods must have been made up to be longer (if the F1 rods are actually longer and the deck heights the same [F1 versus P4] ... then we can really see that Ferrari was struggling financially and not giving F1 a proper effort) when this crank was installed ... maybe they are Carellos and not genuine?

Anyway yes the block in Jim's #0846 is a genuine P4 block (the photos will be probably in the earlier part of this very thread?).
Pete

 

Hi Stu,
My comments were not directed at you. I was careful what I wrote - "just to have others attempt to discredit me or the sources that I quote?" - but maybe I put it in the wrong post. No slight against yourself intended.

Stu
Not angry with you. Just fed up with certain people trying to discredit people who say something they don't like. BUT, I don't want to get into a pissing contest.
Forghieri's comments were to the effect that the works P3s and P4s only ran 4L engines.
Nathan

 

"Forghieri's comments were to the effect that the works P3s and P4s only ran 4L engines."

Could very well be true or could be wrong as Forghieri's remembrance of the P3 and P4 wheelbase being the same is wrong. The engines that Wayne S worked on were not works cars. Perhaps NART tried something the factory didn't. Wayne S. says he did and I believe he believes he did.

As an aside the last Ferrari to finish first overall at Le Mans wasn't a works car and was modified by NART. These modifications were noted by the Judges when the car was at Pebble.

 

FYI

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0846.330P3.htm

 

Now that it's accurate, (long mistaken P5 reference gone, as well) I only wonder how many of those who've pointed to barchetta in the past as the point de facto end-all, be-all 0846 reference will reverse their stance in that regard.

No matter. Thanks to this thread, I've gotten to be a pretty good dancer. Check out my "Snoopy."

 

Fair enough ... but I think we are not on the same or opposite wave lengths.

I believe Jim's block is 100% P4, that has been proven. I believe the heads once ran at Le Mans, again that has been proven.

Where the crank came from I have no idea? ... I wish I had a 1967 Ferrari F1, as if I did I would pull it apart and measure the crank and send measurements to Jim so we could see if the important dimensions match Jim's P4 block, ie. it would fit in his block.

Ofcourse cranks get old and should be retired ... did Piper have a new one made and for some reason, known only to Piper, he reduced the stroke?

I personally would like to look into the similarity between the 1967 F1 engine and the pukka P4 engine ... they must be close, since you and Paul believe that is what is in Jim's car, and others have proven otherwise. If we can prove that the bearing locations are identical, etc. then we can prove that it is feasible for Piper to have put a F1 crank in a P4 block and confusion solved. We then can ignore the possibility of these cars (P3/4, P4's) ever having run with anything less than 4 litres (or though if David made a 3 litre crank fit ... hmm, so could Ferrari).

BTW: I am not trying to discredit anybody ... heck I have no credentials at all, so why would I be playing that game. I don't even own a Ferrari, and never even seen a prototype Ferrari other than in 'cheap' books. My only interest is in this fascinating research ...

Pete

 

Yes, but many well respected Ferrari experts and Ferrari historians are NOT convinced.
Nathan

 

But please keep in mind that the only reason I "complained" was because the other thread was continuing the 0846 authenticity "debate". I was banned by the moderator for 2 weeks because I dared to mention in another thread that there might still be some photos somewhere of 0846 after the LeMans fire. I simply thought that since I am not allowed to discuss the authenticity of the car anywhere else except HERE, then nobody else should be able to discuss the authenticity of the car anywhere else except HERE. Just wanting fair treatment for all concerned.
(I'm not the 0846 whipping boy.)

As for all this F1/P3/P4/330/4 liter debate; it seems much ado about nothing. All this engine debate doesn't do anything to uncover any additional trail of provenance to account for the missing years from 1967 until Piper picked up the frame for his replica that was sold to JG years later. Until somebody can provide a clear cut trail of documentation that proves Piper's replica was built upon the tattered remains of 0846, then JG still owns a replica.
Which was exactly what Piper attested to I believe, and after reading JG's documents, Pedretti believed as well; something along the lines of "as long as you know what you're getting" I believe.
Is all the above pretty much correct?

 

It’s interesting that you quoted your cheer-leaders in answering this question. But the fact that you quoted them shows that you agree with what they wrote - that the engine originally in 003 WAS NOT a (4L) 330P4, but according to the above it was a “250P4”.
And yet the inference of your reply repeated below is that the engine in 003 when purchased WAS a (4L) 330P4, and how dare I question it.

So, who’s right? You in post #915 (it was a 3L) or in Post #911 (it was a 4L)?
Nathan

 

Arlie,

I agree with you about keeping all debate on '0846' in one thread.

I'm not sure I agree with you about your comment about the engine. Jim got an assembled 'kit' from Mr. Piper. Mr. Piper bought out Mr. Ferrari's P4 spares + ? back in the early '70s. If the bits used in Jim's 'kit' came from this purchase then we know most the pieces history since new. The frame would have had to have taken a more complex route - escaping, or being liberated, from Ferrari and eventually making its way to Mr. Piper's place.

The debate about the block is relevant - if Mr. Piper thought the engine sold to Jim was F1 but Jim has proven that it is in fact a P4, this helps Jim's case (and makes the car a bit cooler considering it's running with a real P4 engine - the engine being the heart of any Ferrari). On the other hand, if as Jim referred to in post 911, Mr. Piper knew that the engine that he built up used a P4 block, as Jim claims, it means that Mr. Piper is very astute as to the nuances of late '60s Ferrari racing bits - weakening Jim's case. So, strangely enough, if Nathan is right, it's good for Jim.

Of course, if the block is not P4, all bets are off regarding this, latest, line of discussion.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I would still love to see overlays of Jim's P3/4 chassis over a P4 chassis and a P3 chassis.

PPS. Nathan, I don't think Jim is claiming that the motor is a virgin. he is saying that the block and heads are of P4 spec and that sometime in the past 30 years the bits were assembled from the spares pile as a 3 liter motor (probobly by Mr. Piper) to meet racing needs of its owner.