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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    As the great debate rages, automotive scholors meander throughout the Great Hall, raving on the merits of engine displacement, microscopic variations in wheelbase dimensions, and import emission requirements. Meanwhile, a giant elephant labeled "MISSING PROVENANCE" strolls brazenly through the crowd and is unnoticed by all.
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Art
    Tom

    1967 was the magic epa year for 21 years but the reg. I cited changed that.
    As I read it you can now import cars older than 21 years old without problem.
    My reading of dot is 25 years. I think these exemptions now super cede other requirements. Every state differs, that's why the "road Legal 917" was allegedly registered in Alabama. New York would probably allow it now but upon investigation when I realized the 917 may have become old enough to import legally and register in NY I learned that there were other issues with them that would make it tough to use one as I enjoy doing.

    Best
     
  3. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0846.330P3.htm

    "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
    That saved a wretch like me....
    I once was lost but now am found,
    Was blind, but now, I see... "
     
  4. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran
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    I see nothing on the Barchetta site to explain any of the missing time frame from 1968, when the original 0846 was scrapped, and the ensuing years when Piper was building and racing his cars. Certainly nothing to explain a 34 year gap from 1968 until Piper sold the car in 2002. Where does the Barchetta site mention the alleged extrication of the chassis of 0846 from the Modena scrap yard and making its way to some unknown chassis builder who utilized the remains in a replica chassis for Piper?

    The elephant still walks.
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    I must admit I still don't understand the documentation stating 1967, but I am well out of my depth here amongst all these experts ...

    All I can say is that Jim's car appears not to have been built to P4 blueprints (as all other Piper built cars were) has interesting evidence of race damage in coincidental places, contains a real P4 engine (whatever the cc size was when he bought it) and through his restoration has gained even more pukka P3, P3/4 or P4 parts, such as it's new tail.

    I'll let you guys continue the discussion until something new turns up, but I really hope we can move past the (close to irrelevant) engine discussion. This discussion (as many others) really just lends itself to proving whether Piper really knew what he was selling or not? ... that is naturally important, but we already now that he thought he was selling a 100% P4 copy (wearing a P3 spider body), which Jim's car is not ...

    Best
    Pete
     
  6. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    But has the elephant something to say about the fact that Jim didn´t took delivery of a P4-chassis, but of a P3-chassis modified to a P4-chassis in order to accept a P4-engine? Has the elephant something to say about the fact that only one factory car was ever equiped with such a chassis, namely 0846? Has the elephant something to say about the fact that Jim´s chassis bares the marques and traces of damage, in compliance with the damage that has been recordered on 0846?

    Still the theory that the builder, commissioned by Piper to build the replica, took a shortcut in taking a scrapped chassis (probably never knowing what it was) and Piper just assuming this builder delivered a ´brand new´P4-chassis seems more likely, than the (only other alternative) theory that some anonimous builder bent over backwards to create a P3-chassis from scratch, than modifying it to P4-specifications and adding traces of damage similar to the damage as sustained by 0846, then to pass the chassis off as a P4-replica (which it isn´t!).

    True, as of yet there is no rockhard evidence as to what happened in those 34 years, but where you say ´missing provenance´ the facts would have one say ´reasonable doubt´.
     
  7. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Hi Art
    Your comments are very interesting, and are similar to those posted 18 months ago (see http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134282733&postcount=102). Both of which look to be spot on.
    You realise the ramifications of this suggestion?
    If DP listed this car as a '67 P4 *as a courtesy to Jim* then DP knew the document was inaccurate,
    and therefore by extension so did Jim !! He also knew it was inaccurate.
    Nathan
     
  8. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Tom
    I’m surprised at you. You’re usually quite insightful.

    So it’s settled then?
    EXCEPT THAT IT'S NOT A 330P4;

    at the time of writing;
    Chassis No. "0003" was NOT a 330P4 chassis, but a 330P3 modified - according to Napolis
    Engine No. "0003" was NOT a 330P4 (i.e. 4L) engine, but a ‘3L P4’ - according to Napolis
    Gearbox No.593A N7 was not a 330P4 g/box, but a 330P3 g/box - according to Napolis

    So Napolis has himself totally discredited this document.

    Nathan
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Agree Nathan, EXCEPT that at the time Piper wrote the document he still thought chassis no. "0003" was a 330P4 chassis. This mistake was not discovered until restoration.

    It is also possible (and I think Jim has already stated this) that the engine size mistake was not discovered until restoration also. Remember externally there would be no difference as it is a stroke difference only. Love to know the factory block deck height for a 330P4 block ...

    Pete
    ps: Actually I've just thought of a valid reason why the deck heights could be the same for both a 330P4 and the 3 ltr F1 engine, AND Ferrari would not have been lazy or cheap (only making one block casting) and thus unnecessarily carrying extra weight in their F1 cars (as I suggested in earlier posts).

    It could be that to maintain the 60 degree V angle that the deck height has a minimum due to head and bore width? ... thus the 3 ltr engine has to have longer connecting rods. This could be true because the heads do not look very narrow and this is one of the reasons why later Ferrari v12 engines are 65 degrees (550, etc.).

    As with everything design is fill of compromises ... :)
     
  10. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

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    #3385 CMY, Jan 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'm not getting into the "missing provenance" debate with anyone but I'm sure a few of us have held automobile parts buried in our garage/back yard for years or decades at a time. Maybe we figured we needed it later and the price was too good to pass up, plans fell through, hindsight is 20/20, etc.

    My own father gave away a '55 Chevy 210 (built to resemble the car from Two Lane Blacktop, sans engine) to a group of kids in his neighborhood in the mid 70's. I had a Mustang SVO that I bought/sold without a pink slip- it actually had a junk title but I managed to drove it home- and the DMV has no record of my ownership for the four years it sat in my garage.

    I guarantee that both of these automobiles are still running around but there are some pretty big holes in their history. Do they cease to be? I think not.. 0846 is no different, even though the dollar amount involved is definitely higher. The guy who bought the SVO got a verbal history (I had known the car for almost 10 years) and I'm sure he discovered more along the way that contradicted what I had told him, good or bad.

    In the end, the metal tells the story. Piper's "P4 chassis" is a P3/P4, which only occurred once in the history of Ferrari. Piper didn't represent it as such, which means the chassis builder didn't tell him or he simply didn't know what was going on. The engine fit, the wheelbase was right(ish), the guy saved a few bucks and DP got what he wanted, all in a time that the car was viewed as a racing tool, nothing more or less.

    But besides all that, all the hot chicks like 0846.. isn't that enough? ;)
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  11. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Arlie,

    Not 34 years, 6 years - the car has a known history from the time Piper owned it. The question is can the 6 year gap between 0846's deconstruction and Mr. Piper's purchase be filled or does the history of '003' really begin in '74?


    Nathan & GTE,

    Stepping back from documents and engine displacements for a moment, I've thought about the bigger picture.

    I find it unlikely that Mr. Piper didn't know what he had (a chassis that could run either a P3 or P4 motor). The only way the history comes together is as follows: Mr. Piper bought Mr. Ferrari's P stockpile once Ps no longer met the then current regulations. This included parts for all of the Ps 1 - 4 including both P3 and P4 engines (and probably some old F1 stuff was thrown in). Mr. Piper convinced Mr. Ferrari to throw in the blueprints so that he could build up a racecar using the stockpile. Piper ordered 3 chassis - 2 made according to the blueprints and one according to the blueprints but modified to accept either a P3 or P4 engine. This is what was delivered. Unbeknownst to him, the chassis builder recovered the scrapped 0846 frame and repaired it to complete the order (by the way, it is likely that the chassis builder knew exactly what it was - but back then it was a used, broken racecar frame, so he thought he was cheating Mr. Piper). Take a look at the "Question 4 Ferrari owners in the 50s, 60s and 70s" thread to get a sense of how things were back then.

    Jim says this has to be the case as the modification of a P4 chassis to accept a P3 engine would be very different. I am taking Jim at his word on this as I cannot tell based on the pictures - but it makes sense.


    Nathan,

    My question to you is: Did Mr. Piper order the chassis modification as part of the original order or did he receive 3 identical chassis and send one out for modifications? Is there any way of confirming your answer whatever it may be?


    Regards,

    Art S.

    PS. Jim, what about the 917 make it undesirable for road use in the way you would use it?
     
  12. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

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    JG, I'm kinda curious about this as well.. not pushing the issue, but some spare 917 motors recently turned up-- if you're going to bite the bullet now is the time.

    OTOH, if you don't like it or don't fit then it's completely understandable. I still love 'em though! :)
     
  13. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    If this were to be the case, than we would be talking about a P4-chassis, modified to accept either a P3 or P4 engine, but Jim´s chassis is a modified P3-chassis, since the blueprints Piper had, are P4-blueprints. Right?

    I have add that this is what both parties thought to be the subject of the agreement. Piper was under the impression he sold to Jim one of his replica´s, Jim was under the impression Piper sold and delivered one of his replica´s.

    In terms of the content of the agreement, the way it came about and the way both parties fulfilled their mutual contractual obligations, nothing went wrong, allthough nothing seemed to go wrong.

    There turns out to be a little inconsistency once during thorough work on the car, it turns out it is not a chassis built per P4-blueprints, so Jim did not get delivered that on which parties had agreed, after all. No biggie though, since it all is in Jim´s advantage. Piper is left behind, because only after selling and delivering the car to it´s new owner, it turns out the car is build upon the remains of a genuine Ferrari factoryracer, with a unique racing history.
     
  14. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    GTE,

    You're generally correct, but Piper is not a fool and somewhere in one of these threads it came out that he ordered the modification. I'm assuming that the chassis differences are small enough that Mr. Piper wouldn't realize that the chassis was not a P4 modified to accept a P3 engine but rather a P3 chassis modified to accept a P4 engine - for him either case was what he ordered. The question is, did this modification occur prior to the initial delivery of the chassis to Mr. Piper or not? If so, we are down to one question: how could the chassis builder get a hold of the chassis? Jim postulates that it was recovered from the junkyard.

    If the chassis were ordered near the time that the spares purchase was made from Ferrari, then the timetable makes more sense: Mr. Piper buys out the remaining usable P bits from Mr. Frerrari, it is likely that the remaining, damaged bits were thrown out at this time. So like mana from heaven, a damaged chassis lands in the lap of the chassis builder just as an order for s similar chassis comes in.

    By the way, I'm taking Jim's word as to the differences between P3 and P4, I don't have schematics or overlays allowing me to compare. Having these overlays showing the P3 chassis, P4 chassis and the '0846' chassis would go a long way to strengthening Jim's case in my opinion.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Nathan

    Once again you are wrong. What part of the EPA/DOT law I cited don't you understand? What part of David signed that and other documents and swore to them and I didn't don't you understand? What part of these are legal documents that speak for themselves and are quite clear as to who put the car together, what parts it contained, the origin and date of manufacture of those parts, and what model year the car these parts were built up into by David represented?

    HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN DAVID REFERRING TO HIS 0900 AS A 1967 FERRARI 330 P4? THE CHASSIS IN 0900 WASN'T BUILT BY FERRARI IN
    1967.

    The good news is that after viewing my "extensive documentation" (Ferrari's words) they corrected the date of manufacture to 1966 when THEY IN THEIR SOLE DISCRESION PARKED 330 P4 0846 IN MY GARAGE ON A WEB SITE COPYRIGHTED BY FERRARI S.p.A THE DATE 0846 WAS ACTUALLY MANUFACTURED. (Pages 111 and 112 The 0846 Papers)

    What part of 2000-21=1979 are you unable to compute?

    What part of parsing, citing one post without also linking the answer to it, in an old thread, which was proved wrong, (All the documents including the Bill of Sale as I immediately answered are the same) without showing that that post was answered and proved NOT TRUE is pathetic and dishonest don't you understand?

    What part of calling Pete and Paul M. cheerleaders is pathetic don't you understand?

    Art

    Revisit pages 63-85. It is complicated but it is also clear.

    Chris

    I really think the least you could do is send me some of those so I can give them to my Babes. :)

    I saw that about the 917 engines. Very Cool. It's really the fragility of some components that worry me more. These are great cars but the one I'm working on now and I can't talk about just yet will IMO be much more of a shi t storm than 0846.

    Best
     
  16. GTE

    GTE F1 Veteran

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    True, but the fact remains that mr Piper only had access to P4-chassis, since that was what he was building himself. So, if mr Piper actually had ordered a chassis to be modified, it would lead to a modified P4-chassis, which is not what is in Jim´s car. If it would be the case that mr Piper had a P4-chassis made and then gave it over to a chassisbuilder to have it modified to certain standards, only to receive a chassis that is a modified P3-chassis, rather than a modified P4-chassis, than this chassisbuilder has simply replaced the chassis he got from mr Piper, with another chassis. A chassis that shows all the characteristics of #0846. Characteristics that only apply on #0846.

    It is very well possible that Piper wouldn´t have recognized it as such. He was under the justified impression he recieved a modified P4-chassis as ordered and not taking away from his knowledge on the particular subject, maybe even Piper wouldn´t notice the difference between a P3-chassis modified to P4 standards and a P4-chassis modified to whatever Piper had ordered. Piper didn´t examine the chassis that closely, since he had no reason to do so.

    In both instances, the point remains that Jim´s car doesn´t have a modified P4-chassis, so it is impossible that it is a chassis built by Piper or by someone that has built it for Piper on the base of Piper´s P4-blueprints.

    Jim´s car has a P3-chassis, modified to accept a P4-engine, in resemblance to #0846, bearing the scars that are perfectly linked to the damage #0846 has sustained. I don´t see anyone refuting this claim and Jim has made a very extensive document on it. If it quacks like a duck...

    We can only guess as to what happened with the chassis of #0846 after the factory had scrapped it from their books and tossed it out, but, unlike others, I don´t find it all that unlikely that someone picked it up and that it later ended up at Piper who had no point in believing it was something else than a Piper-made chassis. At least not as unlikely that someone would´ve gone through the trouble of making a P3-chassis from scratch (if that is even possible), modify it to P4-standards, adding some traces of damage similar to those to be found on the real #0846, only to let it live on as a Piper Original.
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    An "XL" for me, Chris.....thanks ...........morning, Mr G.!

    *off to do some damage, somewhere..........*
     
  18. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Pete,
    OK – if we accept this, do we also accept that this document has NOW been proven to be wrong?
    After all:
    Chassis No. "0003" is NOT a 330P4 chassis, but a 330P3 modified - according to Napolis
    Engine No. "0003" is NOT a 330P4 (i.e. 4L) engine, but a ‘3L P4’ - according to Napolis
    Gearbox No.593A N7 is not a 330P4 g/box, but a 330P3 g/box - according to Napolis
    So this document is now proved to be wrong. Is it right, therefore, for Napolis to still use this document to prove that he bought a 330P4?
    Nathan
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Nathan

    Why do you persist ignoring facts?

    The document speaks for itself and the most important thing it does prove is that Piper was wrong about exactly what the chassis he sold me was among other things.

    That remains the undisputed bottom line.
     
  20. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Which in turn proves the document is wrong, doesn't it?
    Nathan
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Once you answer the questions I asked you and apologize to Pete and Paul M
    I'll respond to any question of yours that hasn't been asked and answered.
    I really appreciate that it was your research that conclusively proved that David was wrong about the chassis he sold me being built to P4 Plans, THAT HE STILL THINKS IT IS, and that neither he nor I counterfeited P 3/4 0846's chassis but recently IMO you've lost it.
     
  22. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    I see you're trying to start another pissing contest. I'm not interested.
    You've got a really funny way of showing your appreciation. Calling me a liar. Saying I'm wrong. Funny how I'm right when it suits you, but always wrong when it doesn't suit you.
    I don't recall ever saying that you didn't counterfeit the chassis.
    What he says he sold and what you say you bought are 2 different things. How they got to be 2 different things has never been proved.

    Nathan
     
  23. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    piloti - in regards to the specs I posted, I did so for pure entertainment value, as I fully expected your response to be as it was.

    Perhaps you meant to say:
    I don't recall ever saying that you (did) counterfeit(ed) the chassis.

    Piper didn't know. Nobody did. Those who learn fast do now. Sorry.
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Nathan

    You misunderstood what I wrote. I never said, up until now as Wax points out in the post that precedes this, you said or implied that either I or David counterfeited the chassis that David sold me. I said that your research proves neither of us did.

    I agree with Wax that this statement does imply counterfeiting:

    "What he says he sold and what you say you bought are 2 different things. How they got to be 2 different things has never been proved."

    It's your research, among other things, that proves David believes that the chassis he sold me, as well as the documents he swore and signed, was built to P4 Plans.

    It's your photograph that proves that neither David or I counterfeited 0846's P3 chassis and that when compared with the photo's I've posted prove that the chassis HE SOLD ME,THE ONE IN THE PHOTO, IS THE SAME CHASSIS THAT IS CURRENTLY IN MY CAR.

    The above proves that they are not 2 different things. Either David is correct that the chassis is built to P4 plans or I am right that it is a P3 chassis.

    The chassis answers that question and is available for inspection as it has been for years to confirm exactly what it is or isn't.

    I really do feel you should, in light of you desire not to engage in "pissing contests" apologize to Paul M. and Pete.

    As for agreeing with you when I find it convenient that is silly. Your statement that David recently said that the chassis he sold me was built to P4 plans isn't something one can agree with or disagree with. I believe you that he made it. I also believe that the photo he gave you to post proves beyond the shadow of any doubt that he is wrong.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Agree.
    Agree, now but not at the time of writing. But this has no bearing on the fact that the block and head castings are genuine P4 components, as it is other details like Le Mans stampings and casting ribs (on the block) that confirm that they are the real deal.

    The fact that Piper thought the gearbox in #0003 was a P4 gearbox doubly proves that he is not the expert on these details that many proclaim he is. And I mean absolutely no disrespect to David saying this. Again if I bought or built a prototype Ferrari and wanted setup advise, I'd try to contact David. If I wanted to know which prototype Ferrari ran a revised oil cooler setup during the Daytona round of the championship in 1966, I would contact somebody else. Piper sounds like he lives in the present, and thus not a historian of the past.

    The other thing we all have to remember is that Piper drives #0900, I doubt he drives all his prototype Ferraris and my understanding is that he leases them out. He also has preparation performed by others, thus yes he might spanner his own cars (ie. the cars he actually drives) he surely would be too busy racing, etc. to actually spanner one of his leased cars also (?). Thus it is entirely possible that he never really has had a detailed look at #0003 (ie. sat for a couple of hours under her looking at the chassis details ... we would cause we are fascinated by these cars, but Piper has owned plenty and thus they would not consume him to the same degree anymore).

    An example of how one person can not know everything: I am doing a very comprehensive restoration of an Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV, yep bare shell and I have replaced just about 50% of the shell with new metal. In most cases I have actually hand made the replacement panels ... BUT it absolutely amazes me how I am still finding out little things that I did not know about these cars from others. Sometimes I even have to go out to the shed and check something that I've just learnt and been floored that I was wrong, or hadn't noticed ... or remembered.
    Pete
    ps: Nathan, I am concerned that you found out about my private fascination of cheerleader costumes, etc. I guess that's destroyed that fantasy :(, but I can assure you that it was a solitary thing and Jim was never involved ... I would really appreciate that you do not mention this to my wife though, thanks :).
     

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