The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Damn, I seemed to have missed a bit flying around the world in the last nine days. Someone should have told me to make popcorn before I started reading this thread again...

 

Erik,

Make popcorn, I don't think its over

Art S.

 

LOTS of popcorn....and don't forget the butter

 

When 0846 is again available for "inspection" in the Tri-State area...

 

Art

It's been over for a while. Look at these two photo's. One is 0854.
Note the gusset.
0854 is a P3 Chassis.

One is 0846. Note that someone cut off the gusset and welded in, in the center of where the original P3 gusset used to be a non original (P3) piece of flat stock to install a P4 tail onto 0846 which was done by Ferrari in December 1966 and which we're now doing using 0858's P4 Spyder tail . If this were a P4 chassis they wouldn't have had to cut off this gusset it wouldn't be there and the P4 tail that had been fitted would have fit without modification. If this wasn't a P3 Chassis the vestigial cut off gusset wouldn't be there. Note that this modification allows the P4 tail which 0846 was fitted with by Ferrari in December of 1966 to slide forward 12mm keeping the rear wheel centered in the wheel well when they shortened 0846's P3 wheelbase by 12mm.
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Note how narrow 0846's center roll hoop is. It's shortened by 12mm to center the tail. Note how we had to match it and reform the front edge of the rear wheel well where it meets the center section for the same reason.
These are recent musings but I think they are correct.
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Suppose I showed up at a meeting of the American Numismatic Society and made the following claim:

I purchased a Liberty Head nickel from another experienced coin collector. He sold it to me as a reproduction Liberty Head nickel. It was missing the four digits of the date on the coin so there was no chance that it could be confused with an original or be accused of being counterfeit. When I started cleaning up the nickel, I noticed that it looked very old. There were certain "forensic marks" that make me believe that it was at one time a genuine 1913 Liberty Head nickel which is worth $1,000,000 dollars or more. I display detailed photos of the wear marks on the coin as verification of its authenticity. Never mind that the all important 4 digits of the date are missing. Never mind that decades of provenance are missing that I can't account for. It is my belief that the coin was an original and had been tossed out in the trash by the U.S. mint and somebody had later retrieved it from the trash and sold it as a reproduction. The date had been removed by years of wear and tear as a result of rattling around in somebody's pocket change.

What do you think the response of the numismatic aficianados would be toward my incredible claims that 80 percent of my nickel was the real thing?

According to post #788, there were/are 8 P3 and/or P4 Ferraris in existance. There were/are 5 1913 Liberty Head nickels in existance.
Credibility, be it for a car or a nickel, lie in the numbers. Without the numbers and without an absolutely positive trail of provenance, wild claims hold little hope for wide acceptance.

 

This was purchased for 4 dollars.

In this auction, the opening bid was 1,000,000 times that.

http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/decl0800.htm
Sold twice and bought in once at Sotheby's over the last ten years, fought over in a sticky court suit, and of uncertain provenance, a Philadelphia Dunlap July 4, 1776, broadside first printing of the Declaration of Independence rocketed past its $4/6 million estimate and sold via Sothebys.com for an Internet document auction record $8.14 million. The price includes Sothebys.com's 10% buyer's premium.

 

Both will still be in Indy at the end of the month when I'm heading out for a look you're welcome to come, measure and compare.

 

Do I really need to post a link AGAIN to the infamous Ford museum antique chair that was authenticated by experts and turned out to be a replica?

 

see, its "proof in the metal" like this that makes me wonder why some of these folks are STILL disagreeing with JIM. its not like they made 3,000 P3/4s or anything, they only made "x" number of P3s and modified JUST ONE TO "P3/4" specs per the print. what the hell else could the car be , but all " that is left of" what we know as the racecar, 0846. its one of one, its not like its a production car, hell "P4s" are rare enough.......


sheesh.

 

Arlie - the document to which you were directed is quite real.

It's plainly obvious you'll never agree this is 0846, nor do you have anything new to add to the discussion, as you rehash the same ol', same ol' logic of an annoying 3-year-old time and again, minus the charm or reading skills.

You've proclaimed your disdain for "fat cats" with a greater passion than the balance of F-Chat's Membership base, past or present, active or inactive, subscribed or unsubscribed - combined. The same can be said for your bountiful collection of conspiracy theories.

Taken together, on one point, there is consensus with even more agreement than those who've come to realize 0846 is, indeed in the care of 'Napolis, like it or not...

In a nutshell, you're a nut.

 

Okay, okay, I'll make popcorn. Someone else needs to bring beer...

 

Michael

As one who works with metal you got it. As Pete said a long time ago there are only three possibilities as 0846's P3/P4 chassis is unique. One of One.

This chassis is the remains of 0846.
This chassis is a world class counterfeit of 0846 done before I bought it.
This chassis is a world class counterfeit of 0846 done after I bought.

Nathan's research has proved that David still thinks that the chassis he sold me is built to P4 Plans. That speaks for itself.

The photo David gave Nathan to post proves that the chassis in my car is the same chassis I bought from David P3 not built to P4 Plans and in the exact same configuration I bought it in when compared with photo's I've posted showing the chassis after I bought it. (P3 forward chassis engine mounts lining up with P3 forward engine,engine mounts in photos both before and after I bought it)

In the end it's really pretty simple. The debate ended with Nathan's post 389 and as I've said before I really thank him for making it.

 

Bah, just package the whole car up and send it back to Piper for a refund. Materials not as described or whatever and be done with it.

The problem with grey is that some people see it as white and others see it as black. Just like a zebra. Not much difference here either.

Steve

 

But it is not a dated or serial numbered object of modern era mechanical production as are cars or coins. Is there an official letter from the founding fathers that also indicates exactly when those secondary copies of the Declaration of Independence were officially "written off" and carried away to the scrap yard where they were miraculously rescued?

Thanks for the name calling. That always seems to happen when I get closer to "hitting the nail on the head". I guess you still haven't come to terms with that Ford museum antique chair turning out to be a replica.

I'm not exactly a stranger to metal, especially aircraft metal. My relatives worked for several aircraft factories and were heavily into quality control. (Recognize the names of ChemFab, Dee Howard, Falcon Jet?) I have hundreds of precision measuring devices in my tool stash. Calipers, micro torque wrenches, thickness gauges, metal working tools of all kinds. Cleco pliers are no strangers to me. Chemical milling processes as used in the aircraft industry are also familiar. But a 12mm difference in an Italian race car wheelbase is not in the same league as a 1/10,000th inch requirement for a government aircraft contract. The presence or absence of a roughly welded frame bracket that could have occured anywhere along the 38 year lifetime of a scrapped out Italian race car is no difinitive proof of anything. Numbers and/or provenance is what counts. (at least it always has been in the past.)

 

You do have to admit that it is still a very nice chair.

 

There seems to be a lot of heat in this thread. I don't know if saying anything adds fuel or pours water on it, but having read through all of this, I think there are really only two possible conclusions.

Obviously this particular car is unique, even among its counterparts. I dont personally know enough of the cars, but you guys are talking very low numbers. You have a car here, that is obviously altered from whatever it started out being. It has repaired damage. The repaired damage is comparable to only one other car that ever existed. The car that did exist was sold for scrap, but what actually became of that scrap isnt entirely known.

If the car was a P4 replica, why would it have an obvious alteration from what only a P3 would have had, I mean, that is pretty darn hard evidence. Unless someone was building P3 replicas and later converting them to P4's, that doesnt make any sense, again seeing the low numbers of cars.

But you guys are also aware of one simple human fact. There are always going to be some people, on one side or the other of an issue, who never cede to being wrong. You could amass volumes of evidence, expert witness testimony, all of it, and they still will never cede the argument. So like some of these insistent on numbers, it may be they will never concede. Which leads to those two possible choices.

Either 0846 is authentic, or, its counterfeit. Being that the present owner and the previous owner seem to have respect and are open about what they do, I find it hard to believe someone would go to all the trouble. I'm not saying it isnt possible, but it seems highly unlikely.

Has anyone considered spectroscopy of the metal? I would think there would be enough differences between a replica and a real car to show some metalurgical differences, if the chassis metal came from different foundries. Or, you could Xray the welds. I would imagine you could see differences between different welders and welding personell. Xray welds on a couple P3/P4's, and some replicas, to see if you can see differences, then Xray 0846. Then we may all have a conclusive answer. Although for some even that wont end the argument.

I understood the coin thread, but I see no real comparison to this. Just missing the number tag is not enough to conclude it is not that car. I would also imagine if Ferrari scrapped out a car, they would remove the number tag.

 

I still wonder what the ´nay-sayers´ would want to consider as the most likely alternative, and why.

 

krowbar - metallurgy has been well discussed in this thread. 0846 was CAT scanned.

 

The expert welder who first examined the welds upon stripping the chassis is one of the first people to believe that 0846's chassis is original. This is a person who has vast experience with period Ferrari chassis repair and welding and has repaired the chassis of several famous Ferraris. (Page 20 The 0846 Papers)

The through inspection that was done to 0846 was not done for the purpose of Authenticating 0846 but for reasons that will become clear in several months.
(Page 102 The 0846 Papers)

Recently, when asked by Ferrari about this they reiterated that I had not asked them to authenticate 0846, but they did tell them that after carefully studying my document and thoroughly inspecting my car they had come to agree with me.

 

Jim,

I'm not saying you are wrong about the chassis and your assumptions make sense. I'm just saying that its tough to get a full image of the chassis for comparison purposes by looking a 1 ft long sections. My Idea of generating an accurate drawings of both of your chassis to compare with the P4 blueprints may no be practical but it would be nice.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. Neat pictures!

 

Since I don't think that the car under debate will ever difinitively be proven to actually BE 0846, I really don't think that there will ever be a difinitve RIGHT or WRONG. I don't think anybody is ever going to be able to say "HA HA, I told you so." It's all a matter of those missing years in which anything could have happened to that old frame, pro or con depending upon one's viewpoint. If the Ferrari factory themselves came out tomorrow with a glowing admission that the car is authentic, it wouldn't matter to me personally. Neither they, or anybody else knows difinitively who could have made that chassis or modified it through the years. With all the "heat" in this thread as you put it, the legal ramifications could get "sticky". The debate pretty much comes down to the presence or absence of a few $10 hunks of engine mount tubing configuration that could potentially "prove" the car and catapult its value to a few million dollars$$$$$. With that kind of financial potential, PROOF would almost certainly have to be presented in an undeniable fashion. Like maybe a signed affadavit from some Italian chassis maker who verifies that the car was built upon the scrapped remains that were pulled from the dump by their workers on a scrounging expedition. But then the legal can of worms opens up. Mr. Chassis maker sold Mr. Racer a used chassis that should have been a new one, therefore they misrepresented the chassis sale 30 plus years ago. So Mr. Racer could then claim that his sale to Mr. Restorer is non-binding because Mr. Racer's chassis was not what HE agreed to purchase 30 plus years ago. The legal can of worms could become endless. If you think not, just read about the long lost Cobra coupe that was once owned by Phil Spectre. What a legal nightmare!

I'm not so cynical that my mind is closed. But I apply the same standards to this car as I do to others. Show me the serial numbers. Since they are missing in this case, then show me the provenance. NOT some current day letter from some third party. Show me some provenance from somebody that was ACTUALLY present when the chassis was allegedly hauled away from the Ferrari factory, or pulled from the Modena scrap yard, or modified at the chassis maker's shop. SOMETHING more than an unconfirmed theory. In my opinion, the proof is NOT in the metal. It is in the confirmed trail of ownership that must be proven.

Just my 5 cents worth. (Hey look, it's a 1913 Liberty Head!!!)

 

I doubt Mr. Racer would complain too loudly, since he was only authorized to build one, not four. Anyway, the missing years aren't that important when there is other forensic evidence that can be used to prove the authenticity of 0846's chassis.

 

If American law is anything like Dutch law, you're wrong.

Yeas, we know. All you've been doing so far is dismissing a theory that is perfectly supported by forensic evidence. Question remains though, what theory would you consider likely (mind you: consider likely, not consider to be the truth).

Would you agree that there are three theories:

1. The chassis in Jim's car is built upon the remains of what once was 0846, regardless of how this chassis ended up at David Piper's shop.
2. Jim has produced a counterfeit chassis with the sole purpose of mispresenting it to the world as being the remains of 0846.
3. David Piper has willfully produced a counterfeit chassis without taking the advantage of putting it on the market as the remains of 0846, selling it to Jim as a Piper-replica and priced accordingly.

Of not, what would you consider other possible theories? If so, which if the three do you find the most likely given the facts as we know them?