The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think what some people are saying is that the chassis was constructed by Piper (NOT Ferrari) as a "second series" P4 chassis (under an authorization agreement between Ferrari and Piper), and modified by Piper to be able to use a P3 motor....and that is what it was sold as.

 

I would be very interested to see plan views (ideally drawings) of:
- P3 chassis.
- P3/P4 chassis.
- P4 chassis.

I agree that these photos are hard to fully understand ... editing them with arrows, etc. would help though

Pete

 

OK. I’ll try one last time, although we’ve all been here before.
First, let me state my position. I am undecided about this car, but I will not accept something just because I’m told to, and neither should you.

JG would like you to believe that there are only 3 alternatives. In fact there is a fourth. I’ll come back to it later.

So, may I start with Krowbar’s comment “The repaired damage is comparable to only one other car that ever existed”. (Please everyone, read the following carefully before replying)
We are told that this chassis features damage sustained in the 1966 Targa crash. The fact is that NO ONE knows what damage this car sustained in the 1966 Targa crash. There are no photos of the crash, and definitely no photos of the damage. NO ONE, not even JG, knows how or where the chassis was damaged!! So when JG says ‘this is the damage’ it’s pure speculation. He doesn’t know!

JG would also have you believe that Ferrari ran this car with a twisted chassis for the next year or so. That they ran it at near 200mph at Le Mans, and on the banking at Daytona with a twisted chassis. He would have you believe that less than a month after the TF crash it ran at the Nurburgring with a twisted chassis, and that although it was driven by two of the greatest engineer/drivers ever that neither of them noticed anything wrong with the chassis. Does anyone here seriously believe that Ferrari ran this car at all these events with a twisted chassis? My speculation is that they straightened the chassis; or replaced it with another and used the same chassis number.

Re 1976 TF damage. JG’s proof that certain damage was caused at the 1967 TF is based on Wayne Sparling’s comments at Quail Lodge 2004. Note: WS, when he heard that he had been quoted, quickly responded and said that he had been misunderstood or misquoted. (This is not guess-work, or fabrication, on my part. I know who was there when WS was talking and I have spoken to them about what WS said) He later said that he never repaired any P4 after the Targa, and that he was misunderstood, or misquoted. That means that the comments from WS are unreliable – they contradict each other. How do you decide which one of his comments to accept?
As the comments from WS are unreliable at least, then again we are left with speculation. Again, there are no photos of the CHASSIS damage at the time it happened. NO ONE, not even JG, knows what chassis damage there was!! So when JG says ‘this is the damage’ it’s pure speculation. He doesn’t know! This is NOT forensic evidence.

So what we have is a damaged chassis. How it got damaged is pure speculation. JG can tell you how he thinks it got damaged, but there is no proof that he is right. If you want to believe his speculation without proof then that’s up to you. If you want someone to tell you what to believe then go ahead. I prefer to question, then decide.

So, there is a fourth alternative: The chassis was built by someone else to Ferrari specs. Whilst this chassis was in 003 it was raced all over the world, probably damaged, and it was hacked about so that various engines could be fitted. It may have been hacked about so that various bodies could be fitted. How it finished up is here for all to see. How it got there is simply guess work.

Nathan

 

I am correct, but that's only based on what COULD happen, not necessarily what WILL happen. If you've read about the incredible legal fiasco that surrounded the Cobra coupe then you understand. The previous owner had sold the car over 20 years earlier, the car had been through several subsequent owners, then sat in a warehouse for YEARS, yet the previous owner STILL went to court trying to say that the car belonged to him.
(maybe because by that time it was worth a million dollars???)

I consider the possibility that somewhere along the line, something happened that nobody will ever know about. Things happen. Cars are modified. Chassis builders do all sorts of things. Doesn't this entire 0846 survival theory make the ASSUMPTION that NOBODY, ANYWHERE could have possibly possessed the intelligence or the drawings to manufacture a P3 frame? And then modify it to fit a P4 engine? Much has been said that only ONE such car was built? This sounds like a BIG assumption to make. Weren't there chassis builders and racers doing all sorts of things to all kinds of cars?

Why is it that everybody assumes NOBODY else ANYWHERE could have possible built up a P3 frame and done some hacking and welding on it throughout many years of time?

 

But the engine in it when Piper sold it to JG is definitely not a P3, and the photos of it during Piper's ownership show the same engine JG has.

I don't think Piper acquired a P3 engine until about 1993, and then he put it straight into his P2 s/n 0836 - by that time the car he sold JG had been in storage for some time and wasn't seen until Goodwood 2000.

The frame tubes in the engine-bay are to P3 layout, not P4........that's why JG's P4 engine block needs those mountings offset away from the points of chassis triangulation for it to line up - if it had been totally built new to P4 plans, like 0900 and 0900A, the triangulations would line up with the engine mounting holes. And AFAIK there are no surviving original P3 drawings, just the P4 set that Piper has, which he says all three of his 'continuation' chassis are built to.

So if Piper had ever altered the engine bay of this car for a P3 engine, would he have cut off the triangulating tubes leading to the P4 engine mounting points and replaced them with ones leading to the different P3 points? I doubt it. And the left side engine bay tube has been repaired (by Wayne Sparling?) and the right-side tubes are of a slightly different diameter and welded in by a different welder................Piper never had a crash or crashes like those in historic racing, but 0846 did in 1966 and 1967.


Paul M (finding and weighing evidence......not one of "Jim's tifosi" or "cheerleaders"!)

 

Current debate aside, I would think that any such assumption is false. Virtually anything in the Ferrari world is out there, somewhere, in somebody's archives. I once got an e-mail of a 250TR chassis drawing within a day or so of asking for one. Why would ALL P3 chassis drawings vanish off the face of the earth?

 

Something like this?
Probably the wrong one but comes close... ;-)
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Which one is that BTW?

I know that the caption is incorrect.

Is it a Dino 206S?

 

The 250TR drawing that I received was from some book. It was very detailed like a mechanical drawing with all the dimensions. One could probably build a repro chassis from it. Surely the same thing exists somewhere for a P3 which was probably one of the most advanced and expensive race cars of its time.
(I just found the drawing in my scattered e-mail files. Nathan/Piloti sent it to me last June!!! I should have known.)

 

The one I posted here is a biggie IRL....

57 inches wide...

 

Nathan

"JG would also have you believe that Ferrari ran this car with a twisted chassis for the next year or so. That they ran it at near 200mph at Le Mans, and on the banking at Daytona with a twisted chassis. He would have you believe that less than a month after the TF crash it ran at the Nurburgring with a twisted chassis, and that although it was driven by two of the greatest engineer/drivers ever that neither of them noticed anything wrong with the chassis. Does anyone here seriously believe that Ferrari ran this car at all these events with a twisted chassis? My speculation is that they straightened the chassis; or replaced it with another and used the same chassis number."

The chassis is still twisted and it runs just fine. The twist, about 1/2 inch is easily removed by adjusting the suspension which is a bit less work than taking the twist out of a chassis through which the water and oil run or replacing the chassis entirely.

The other points you raised are covered on Pages 99-102, 108-126.

As for your #4 your photo proves that that did not happen.

 

Paul

Start at Post 389, keep reading, and look at Nathans photo. Nathan is correct. Piper did at one time have a P3 engine in 0003/0846. That's what ends the debate. The P3 forward engine engine mount lines up EXACTLY with the chassis P3
Forward chassis engine mount of 0003/0846 without the need of any modification. The modification that is needed to mount a P4 motor into a P3 Chassis is a FORWARD reaching triangle which is bolted on to the chassis. The rear of the tri angle is bolted to the point of triangulation of the forward P3 Chassis engine mount and reaches forward to put it's apex at the point necessary to mate to a P4 forward engine engine mount. This is off the top of my head but if you start at 389 and carefully read forward and look at the photos and refer to pages 63-79 I think you'll understand. How 0846's P3 chassis wheelbase of 2412mm was shortened to the P4 2400mm wheelbase of P3/P4 0846's chassis is also depicted therein.

The debate ends because Nathan Proves that what Piper told Nathan he did: Modified a P4 chassis to fit a P3 Engine is 100% opposite from what actually happened and Nathan's photo proves it.

Best

 

Before Piper ... hmmm, plausible.

Is it possible Jim that your #0846 is actually a modified 412P chassis?. My understanding is that 412 chassis' were P3 type. Who did the modification, I have no idea?. Piper has owned many of these cars, maybe crashed one and replaced the chassis?

Pete

 

So it was no problem to replace a portion of the chassis entirely, (haven't you indicated all along that you believe approximately 80 percent of the chassis is original and 20 percent has been replaced), but it was a BIG problem to throw it on a frame machine and twist it 1/2 inch??????????

So if this twist in the chassis and other damage is a result of the Targa Floria accident, then some portion of the chassis that was replaced must have been replaced AFTER the accident.

And we are now to believe that they/whoever were willing to replace approximately 20 per cent of the chassis, but they/whoever were NOT willing to align the chassis on a frame machine to remove a one half inch twist caused by the Targa Floria accident????????????

To put it more simply, who would bother to replace large portions of a wrecked frame and then stop short of aligning the frame to take out a 1/2 inch twist? Sounds to me like the twist occured long after the damage to the frame, otherwise they would have repaired the twist when they repaired all the other frame damage.

 

If I am understanding some of the philosophy here, that even a signed letter from Ferrari wouldnt convince someone as to a particular cars origin, then what proof would you use to authenticate any of them?

Like I say, I dont have the expertise that some of you have, but outside of a number tag the car sounds pretty authentic. But if all we are going to use is a number tag, then I would question any other car. Heck, I could rip this 308 down and copy a frame, and outside of a number, if I did a good job who would know? But welds are not all alike. Two different people could make high quality welds, but if you looked over the work, you could tell them apart. Welding is an art form, and each welder is like a painter. I would simply assume that if the welding of the remaining P3/P4 cars left in existence look like they were all welded by the same person, you should be able to compare 0846 to them.

Thier simply has to be some scientific way to prove if this particular car is real or not. The steel has a particular chemical composition depending on what foundry made it. The welds have a particular style, depending on who welded them. Even the weld metal itself, would probably all be the same composition on all of the cars known to exist, Different welders could have did the work, but they would have used the same identical welding rod.

If the remaining cars were compared to the known replicas, I think it would be fairly simple to decide if 0846 is indeed real or not. I cant honestly believe that replicas were made with the exact same steel and the exact same welding rod. Even the aluminum sheet should have a signature.

 

There are no missing P3 chassis. There was no before Piper. David has been quite consistant as to where the chassis came from. He told Replica Paul, Max, and Nathan the exact same thing . He had it built to P4 plans that were given to him by Enzo Ferrari. "THE SAME BATCH AS 0900,0900a". HE CONFIRMED TO NATHAN IT WAS BUILT TO P4 PLANS YEARS AFTER HE SOLD IT TO ME. Nathan proved him wrong.

 

Paul:

I AGREE, but I think some don't quite get that....

 

Knowing what I know about aircraft, you would not legally be allowed to straighten a tube steel space frame. Once it was tweaked one way, you would not want to bend it back as you would have to go much farther than you wanted to get it to stay where you were aiming for. That would seriously weaken the structure. If Ferrari were operating on a shoestring, where every dollar had to be stretched as far as it could, I could easily see working around a minor frame twist. I can see having only a handful of engine blocks and having your boys swapping parts back and forth to alter displacement for different arenas. Even if this particular car isnt real, the images that are coming forward, the picture being painted, paints Ferrari in a whole different light. He was struggling hard to stay afloat. And taken in this context, it may be in Ferrari's best interests to forget that car ever existed.

 

You are correct.

I'm not sure that a burning bush and god's voice would convince everyone...

 

Arlie you must really learn to read. NONE OF THE CHASSIS WAS REPLACED AFTER THE ACCIDENTS. ONE TUBE THAT WAS KINKED WAS STRAIGHTENED/CUT SLEEVED AND REWELDED. (PAGE 100). THE ONLY PART OF THE CHASSIS THAT WAS REPLACED WERE THE TUBES THAT WERE DESTROYED IN THE LE MANS FIRE AND THEY WERE REPLACED AFTER THE CHASSIS WAS SCRAPPED BY FERRARI. (AS AN ASIDE IT'S REALLY MUCH LESS THAN 20% CLOSER TO 5%.) THE BURNT TUBES WEREN'T REPLACED BY FERRARI NONE OF THE CHASSIS TUBES OF 0846 WERE. READ PAGE 79.

Ferrari S.p.A. confirms this in the letter they sent me which Nathan was kind enough to confirm the authenticity of.

A letter from Ferrari S.p.A., dated September 29th, 2004, Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846:

Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,

We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.

Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"

This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and EXCATLY what I have posited happened: That my car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. I've never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions my car could not be authenticated by them. I'm not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but I do beleive I am the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible.

 

You got it and as I've said those who have compared the chassis of 0854 and 0846 and the welds such as the ones in the photo's I recently posted and are scattered through out the 0846 Papers have come to the same conclusion.

Once again you are all welcome to come and look for yourself as several members of FCHAT already have.

 

As a final note for this evening Arlie's understanding of the law is as vast as his understanding of NY tax law.

If you sell something for less than what it's worth it's "Hard Cheese".

If you buy something that is not what it is represented to be you can if you wish too put it back to the seller but as I am satisfied with the chassis I wound up owning I'm not planning to do that. As David no longer owns 0846's chassis he is unable to put it back to the chassis maker who took 0846's remains out of the junk yard, replaced some burnt tubes and delivered it to David in the same batch (Davids words as confirmed by Max) as 0900 and 0900a.

The legal status of the car I own has been clear for years. It is 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 0846. Ferrari is quite aware of this, and acquiesced to this years ago. I informed them from the moment I discovered what I believed I really owned of my intention to register this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 no. 0846 with NYS motor vehicle authorities. After stating: "We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures. Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way." (See Pages 108-114) they placed Ferrari 330 P4 0846 in "Your (My) Garage" on their web site where it remains parked today. I have clear legal title to 0846 and could if I wish sell 0846 anytime I wanted too.

This brings up an interesting point. Lets say I did just that. Put 0846 up for auction with full disclosure, The 0846 Papers and a link to this thread.

What do you think would happen? What price would 0846 as it exists today bring? What percentage of, lets say, what 0854 would bring, would it fetch?

The reason I ask is not because 0846 is or ever will be in my life time for sale. The reason is because if you think about it and come up with an answer that is anything above what I have into it I think it shows you've come to believe what I believe is likely true.

 

Well, considering that we've heard from few people (read: none) in the position to actually buy it, that's a good question. My non-educated guess would be 50-70% (I can hear the worldwide teeth gnashing already).

But hey, put it up for auction with a 150M reserve and lets find out.

 

Actually Jim, I suggested this theory a while back. That is, the true judge would be the market place. It is not like you have tried to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. So, here it is warts and all.

What the old saying? Money talks and BS walks?

Dale

PS Again, I'm just saying this in a hypothetical way. You have been quite clear that the car is not for sale. But if you did, this would be the closest that you would ever come to Erik's burning bush.

 

LOL