The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Jim,

The mounting point issue makes sense to me as a reasonable explanation of why its a P3 vs P4 chassis. I just want to double check on something: did Mr. Piper buy the sockpile AND have the frames made in 1974 or was the timing more spread out?

Nathan,

As you know Mr. Piper (and are probobly on better terms with him than Jim is) could you ask what the sequence of events were to his aquiring the modified frame that Jim bought?

Regards,

Art S.

 

I'll go on the record. I'd be happy to write a check for $6.5MM for it.

My parents might get upset that I'd blow my inheritance on it though, not to mention the grief I would get from Spicy...

 

That's roughly the same number I had floating around in my head as well.. of course upon further reflection if both of us had more to spend (or didn't have to explain it) I think it might go a bit higher. Monopoly money counts.. right?

It's significant, one of a kind, and has a documented (albeit controversial) past. 0846 @ $6.5M isn't showing a lack of faith-- it's a bargain. I hate dollar figures, but who's to say it's not a 10M car?

Hear me out; even 'perfect' GTO replicas don't reach 1M. Anyone willing to spend more than that on 0846 must realize what they are buying and why. Because of that alone it has to add to the bottom line regardless of engine & body.. It's a legendary chassis, a unicorn, much in the same way that the recently discovered Shelby coupe was. It's setting a benchmark and not playing within the market parameters.

Just my $0.02, of course.

 

And just to clear it up for the uninitiated..

Arlie believes more in Sasquatch (never materialized) than he does 0846 (available for inspection at any time).

His notion of Jim is likely close to a Dr. Evil type of character (only hell-bent on no personal gain) and he's also never given out any personal information about himself (or photo) aside from location and first name. No, it's not required, (and no one has ever asked for it) but most of us entering this debate are willing to put our reputations on the line, good or bad.

He also spent the first half of this thread ranting without having read Jim's documentation on the subject. If you're wondering, it didn't change his want for a serial number that was stripped from the chassis after it was discarded as scrap. Don't worry though, it still doesn't stop him from haunting local junkyards in search of parts with no provenance.

 

Over many years, several times in writing, as confirmed by many people, David
has explained his belief as to the origin of the chassis he sold me. (See Post 413) His story that the chassis was built to P4 Plans in "the same batch" as 0900 and 0900a, has never changed.

Interestingly David confirmed this belief to yet another person right before the Goodwood revival last September. This person has detailed personal knowledge of 0003/0846, 0900, 0900a, 0900b and 0854. He has inspected 0844, 0850, and 0856, as well. He has documented this knowledge with photographs and notes that, as an aside, shed very interesting light on many of Davids cars, engines and spares.

Right before the Goodwood Revival he ran into David who in his words, pulled him aside for 40 minutes and preceded to discuss me and my car. David could not understand how anyone could think what I was saying could be correct. He then asked David if 0003's chassis had been built to P4 plans and David once again said that had been. For him this was a defining moment as he told me later it was then that he realized that David really did not understand what I was saying. He said that David continued on for a while but he began to feel that even though David would never admit it to himself on some level he was starting to understand.

This person also said that Max had given up on 0900a and it was back at David's available for sale. He then sent me many detailed photos, along with permission to use them and disclose his identity and the above in the final version of the 0846 papers which will be published as soon as a few things run their course.

 

OK now.....We have 52 pages of discussion and over 1000 entries and opinions about this particular car, many of them in opposition to each other. Show of hands now, aside from JG, how many of you have taken a close look at this car in person.....not just seen it, but studied it, crawled around it and felt the chassis tubing and compared it to other examples of P3 and P4? Until you do, you are arguing about the Hope Diamond, but may only be in your first year of Gemology school.

 

My hand is up...that was some good gumbo, at No Problems Raceway, eh, Mr. G.?

Darn weather...always catching me out, without long pants......you have to use the engines as hand warmers.......

It's been pretty straight forward from Day 1, if you passed Geometry, and I went all the way to Calculus before the GPA tracked into the gutter. I have friends that work Frame Tables, and much of what Krowbar and Jim have said are absolutely correct from a materials standpoint. Few cars use the frame as conduit or water systems, for good reason!

More interesting to me, has been the Factory's responses to him as an owner of not only this car, but of many other fine road cars as well.......sometimes when Italians converse in English it is almost as important to understand what they say, together what they DON'T say........it is very plain what the Factory position is, but at the same time they have provided him with FULL restoration support. (Much as they did to Mr. Piper in the day, IMO.)

And of course, Napolis has issued a personal invitation to anyone with knowledge and expertise to get involved, drop over and 'lay on of hands' to his project.

Rare, very rare IMO, and not a common position of anyone trying to accomplish some sort of subterfuge.......

I can't wait to see both cars, once he has things "straightened out".....ROTFLMAO!

 

Well said.

 

Mr. G has studied these cars in such detail, he's almost in a position to crank up on it, as a production vehicle!

Maybe that was actually a crawfish bisque, come to think of it.......

I know there are plenty of non owner historians, and plenty of experts, but there are no other knowledge bases left equal to Mr. G and David Piper......based upon actual ownership.

 

Add my name to the list. And the car was as shown the first time I saw it.

I don't want to claim that I am an expert in the field (more like a very curious student), but I did go and take a look at it while it was apart before stating my opinion for the record. Unlike the majority of the so called experts out there...
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The legal status of the car I own has been clear for years. It is 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 0846. Ferrari is quite aware of this, and acquiesced to this years ago. I informed them from the moment I discovered what I believed I really owned of my intention to register this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 no. 0846 with NYS motor vehicle authorities. After stating: "We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures. Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way." (See Pages 108-114) they placed Ferrari 330 P4 0846 in "Your (My) Garage" on their web site where it remains parked today. I have clear legal title to 0846 and could if I wish sell 0846 anytime I wanted too.

Didn't Ferrari also say 0846 was officially written off and parts of it (if in fact that is what Jim has) should not have been dragged from the trash bin to make a car? Maybe someone from Ferrari can comment on the thoroughness of the web site and the my garage feature-my car is also listed, but all that took was an email saying I owned it. Presumably I could go down to the junk yard, find a ferrari and vin and add it to my garage tomorrow. Without the number 0846 anywhere on the car, how did the state of NY attach it to your title?

 

So we are now up to a grand total of two people who claim to have looked at the car carefully. Any others ........Bueller?.....Piloti?......Horsey?......Piper?.....P4Rep?....Anybody?
(cue sound of crickets chirping)

 

Have you read pages 108-114? Is there some part of Cavallino's *Publishers note you find confusing?

Is there any part of Ferrari's statement on Page 110 explaining exactly what they went through before they in their sole discretion placed 0846 on their web site that you find unclear?

All of the reasons I beleive my car is 0846 were fully disclosed to both NY DMV and Ferrari years ago. After studying the matter for months and several discussions the department of NY DMV that deals with these issues issued title to 0846 as I've described. Ferrari was notified of this submission to DMV and had plenty of time to respond in any way they wished to. They could have refused to put 0846 in my garage on their web site and they could have protested my submission to NY DMV. The fact that Ferrari does not feel that the original chassis remains of 0846 should have been used to "rebuild" 0846 has no bearing on whether or not it was. I presented the reasons I felt it had been rebuilt in discussions with DMV, was told what procedures to follow, followed those procedures and after investigation DMV issued Title as I've described.
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Did somebody mention Sasquatch, i.e., Bigfoot?

Interesting that this Wikipedia site is often quoted as a source for the 0846 "documentation".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_250_LM

But keep in mind that Wikipedia is also the source for Bigfoot "documentation",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot,
sea monster "documentation",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_monsters, and "documentation" of everybody's favorite topic of ridicule: little green men
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_green_men.

Seems to me that you have to either throw the baby out with the bath water, or you keep the baby. Same thing with Wikipedia. You either have to accept what it says about 0846 along with Bigfoot, sea monsters, and little green men. Or you have to throw it all out and seek other sources of alleged "documentation".

From the Wikipedia site:
"WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY
"Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise required to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information."
"However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields."

So you blast Horsefly for believing in Bigfoot, yet you use the EXACT SAME SITE that documents Bigfoot to document the alleged 0846???

 

Ney,

I've seen the car twice in person but have not yet crawled all over it.

Art S.

 

Jim,

Thank you for the more detailed post regarding Mr. Piper. The one thing that isn't clear is: Does Mr. Piper claim that he ordered 3 chassis and recieved 3 identical chassis and then sent one off to be modified or did he order 3 chassis one of which one was to be modified right from the beginning? I'm asking this because if Mr. Piper claims that 003 was modified from the beginning, your argument is strengthened considerably. If he claims that he had 3 identical chassis in his posession at the same time, the argument becomes messy and as to how the modified P3 came into his posession.

Regards,

Art S.

 

For decades, American school students have been taught about space travel, polar bears, World War II Pacific battlefields, etc. So how many American school students have ever been to a World War II Pacific battlefield, seen a polar bear in its natural environment, or traveled into outer space?
Any others......Joe Smith?......Jane Doe?......Anybody?
(cue sound of crickets chirping)
For that matter, 300,000,000 Americans accept that George Washington was our first President. How many have ever actually met him?

 

Several of these guys live a continent away, might be a little hard to get a peek.

I'm not taking sides, I love Jim's car, and believe he has every reason to call it 0846, but..... Piloti is a respected author on the subject, so he probably knows a thing or two about them, Arlie is the house skeptic about all things 0846, Piper ain't talkin' (Probably the smartest of them all) and Ferris only drove a replica, so he's no expert at all.

All, however, are allowed their questions, which Jim can answer, again and again and again, until they either agree (unlikely) or give up (even less likely).

This isn't one of those topics that is EVER going to get resolved to everyone's satisfaction. EVER. Can't, there's too much at stake, too many reputations on the line, and a whole lot of dollar signs. Mix in a little jealousy or envy, and you've got yourself a formula for a good old fashioned dog fight.

DM

 

True, I am no attorney, but wasn't my statement about the legal fiasco surrounding the Spector Cobra pretty much correct? Spector hadn't seen the car for decades, yet still had Shapiro try to utilize legal means to reacquire the car?
http://www.norcal-saac.org/archive/csx2287.html
Do a page search for Shapiro on the above link. And for those that haven't read the story, it's quite a tale. Overall, it makes the ongoing 0846 debate look like a walk in the park.

 

Art

A chassis built to P4 plans has the forward chassis engine mount triangulation at the point necessary to mate with a P4 Engine forward engine mount.

A chassis built to P3 plans has the forward chassis engine mount triangulation at the point necessary to mate with a P3 Engine forward engine mount.

There are many other differences. The wheelbases/length of the chassis are different. The wheel base of my chassis is P3 SHORTENED to P4 (See Pages 74-76) BUT THE ENTIRE CHASSIS IS P3 12mm LONGER from point to point vrs a chassis built to P4 plans. It is the exact same length, point to point, as 0854's P3 chassis. It is not the same length as 0856's P4 chassis which is 12mm shorter point to point. Piper was and remains wrong. 0846's chassis is not built to P4 plans nor is it a chassis built to P4 plans that was modified to fit a P3 engine. The wheelbase among many, many other details and dimensions prove that beyond the shadow of any doubt. Once again Nathan's Photo proves it as well.


Best

 

But can anybody difinitively say that it is NOT a P3 repro chassis (built by somebody other than Ferrari) that's been modified to take a P4 engine?

 

That is because the historical record supports the events. In this case the historical record has yet to be written, or re-written, as the case may be. It is incumbent upon those doing the writing, especially those who publish, to investigate the facts as thoroughly as possible. Traveling to see the car in question is not a hardship if you are serious about making judgment with respect to the historical record. Anything else is just "armchair" research and bloviating. Took you all morning to come up with that response? Normally you just shoot from the hip within 15 mins. or so of a post.

 

Several FCHATTERS have come from Europe to inspect 0846. David has spoken in writing, to Max, to Nathan, and to Replica Paul. He has said the same thing consistently. "The Chassis Was Built To P4 Plans" He was and remains wrong.

 

Your posting that I quoted was made at 12:31 pm. I arrive at my work computer at exactly 12:30 pm (the time I go on duty). SOMETIMES, it actually takes me more than ONE minute to come up with a logical reply.

 

Furthermore, NO 'B' movie actresses, or pet bunnies, were harmed, at any point of our story!

(Throwing in some typical nonsense, from tangental Old Car stories, as Horsefly likes to add! LOL!)

She's looking really pretty, Mr. G. That rounded roll hoop definately looks 'more' correct, to my untrained eye, against the vintage photos..... nice work.

You'll have to consider a distilled version of the key points I think, to really get the newbies up to speed. While it's hard to come up with the one Smoking Gun point of this, it's really important to be able to keep all the points in mind as you postulate to a conclusion..

Engine mount geometry
Frame construction dimensions
Minor repair details
Unrepaired deformation measurements
Modifications to water piping between engine styles
Race participation stampings on components

Most of the naysayers seem to sieze on only ONE of the points and worry it like a dog on a bone....but only when considered simultaneously does it start to sound less far fetched.....and like any saga concerning so many people, some people come out looking good, others are found out as possibly cutting a corner now and then, when it fit the objective........