The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I believe P3 0846 had 8 but P4 0846 had 7. You are right that we may learn more when we fit the spare tire.

Best

 

More smoke and mirrors.
2 simple questions still not answered
1) If 0846 chassis was in Switzerland in 1977 how could it have been used to build 003 in 1974 - the date that DP says he built 003.
2) If the chassis seen in Switzerland in 1977 had 0846 stamped on it - where is that stamp now (that's if your chassis is 0846)? Who took it off and why?

Of couse, if there were 2 chassis - one stamped 0846 and the other in 003 then that would answer the question.

Nathan

 

Nope. Once again you prove you are unable to read.

"It is also quite possible that David built 0003/0846 in 1974, later took it apart and shipped it's chassis or to Switzerland in 1977 assuming Cervan was David."

You continue to make statements that are obviously untrue and when confronted with absolute proof that your statements are untrue continue to ignore the truth.

Do you still think your statement:

""That is a serious charge you're making."

is true?

As I showed beyond the shadow of any doubt that I never made that "charge" why should anyone take anything you ask seriously?

 

I won't be drawn into your pissing contests.

Nathan

 

Still haven't figured out a way to send beer through a modem

 

I'm just curious about one thing: Why is it that some are willing to accept a SECOND HAND TALE about Tom Meade's recollection of transporting a pile of unwanted scrap chassis parts to the junkyard as the gospel truth,
yet when it comes to what David Piper recollects, some dismiss those recollections as him being "mistaken" or "preoccupied" with other matters?
How come Tom Meade is NOT considered to having been "mistaken" or "preoccupied" with other matters?

Seems like some are dancing with whatever partner of logic that suits their fancy.

This second hand tale relates that Tom tossed some chassis parts in the junk that were so worthless that he didn't want them cluttering up his shop, yet somehow this tale wants to relate that the serial numbers of those worthless pieces of scrap metal were remembered; and so conveniently for some because it coincidently adds validity to the alleged tale of 0846 surviving a trip to the scrap yard.

In order for this fantastic tale of survival to be verifiable, those worthess pieces of scrap chassis MUST have had a serial number on them, otherwise, how could Tom's related tale have any merit to this debate?

You can't say, "Tom carried the 0846 chassis to the scrap yard" unless the chassis had a serial number on it to VERIFY the statement? It either DID, or it did NOT. WHO saw the serial number?

And as Nathan REPEATEDLY asked WITHOUT getting a valid answer,
WHERE IS THAT SERIAL NUMBER NOW?????

If it is not on the chassis under debate, then how can ANYBODY be so iron clad certain that it is the chassis of 0846, or anything else for that matter?

 

I don't think that anyone, as you put it, is "iron clad certain"....but as there was only one P3/4 built, and as Jim's car is a P3/4 and NOT a P4, what else can it be but 846? How about presenting another theory that is logical and rational? There are only two theories that make any sense; either Piper lied about what he had, or was unaware of what he had.

 

I'm not postulating any theory, I'm just debating the lines of logic that some are using to draw a desired conclusion. Suppose we go out on a limb and state that Tom KNEW that the soon-to-be-scrapped chassis was from 0846 because it was the only one that had "P3 modified to P4" engine mounts. So we are therefore utilizing Tom's (alleged) observative powers of the engine mounts as verification of the desired theory that the chassis of 0846 survived.
(He MUST have noticed the engine mounts in order for the theory to go forward because the chassis in question does not NOW have a serial number on it.)

Yet we will then do a 180 degree twist of logic and ASSUME that Piper did NOT notice the "P3 modified to P4" engine mounts even though he was twisting wrenches on these cars every day.

The necessary pyramid scheme of logic required for all these "desired" situations to come together in a believable manner is off my radar screen.
I still see a giant black hole in the form of a Modena junkyard from which no trail of documentation has yet to emerge.

I find the appearance of some Swiss document with "0846" typed on it to be very "disconcerting" for all sides of this debate. Numbers don't just disappear or reappear from documents, or metal chassis tubes. I personally think that something "fishy" happened somewhere along the line during the 1970s concerning the chassis numbers and/or the paperwork involved.

That's the UNKNOWN factor that filters throughout this debate. Neither side of the 0846 pro/con debate can be totally sure of what occured during the murky years of the 1970s.

In scientific logic, if part of an equation is false, then the entire equation is false. In this 0846 debate, if part of the equation can never be proven to be true, then the entire theory of the chassis surviving must also be false, AT THIS TIME.

I think that Marcel's viewing of the Swiss customs paperwork is the critical point of this entire debate. We should home in on that situation. But as I've said before concerning the tracking of provenance involving Corvette ownership history, "don't look for what you don't want to find".
You might end up opening a can of worms that you do not want to see. The results might not be what you want. And when you're talking about a car that could potentially be worth millions, legal tempers could start flying and those worms could get messy.

 

Tom might have known what he was throwing away for other reasons than the s/n. He might have known the history of the parts. Alternatively the remains might have had the s/n still attached to the frame at that point.

You question the validity of some paperwork and I would agree with that. Custom papers can and have been forged for all kinds of reasons, I wouldn't trust the Swiss papers anymore than I would trust the papers Piper put together before sending the car to Jim.

0846 will always have a "murky history from the seventies" as some pieces of the story will remain lost forever. But I think Dretceterini summed it up nicely: Jim's explanation is the one that makes the most sense. And the more Jim is working with the car and the more discoveries he makes, the more it points to one conclusion.

 

Here's a thought, if Jim's chassis is the remains of 0846, then it follows that, at some point in time, it was rescued from the junkyard made its way to Piper then on to Jim. How or by whom isn't important. If the chassis isn't 0846, then someone built a P3 chassis and modified it to accept a P4 motor. If this is true, then you have to ask who built it, when, and why. Why build an obsolete chassis just to modernize it into a P4. If the chassis builders Piper commissioned to build his P4's had P3 plans and P4 plans, why go to the effort of building a P3 then modifying it when you can build from the more up to date plans. I think the easiest theory to believe is that they "aquired" 0846's remains and passed it on, making a little money for not much effort. This is something that won't leave a paper trail that can be uncovered years later. All you have to go on is recollections from those involved, accept them or not and move on.

 

I am using probability theory. Allthough some of the things you point out are possabilities, the most possable scenario, based on what physical evidence DOES exist (ie:the chassis is P3/4 NOT P4), is that the car IS 846

 

One interesting point. Marcel M. posts regularly on F-chat yet, I have not seen any posts by him here, especially as he is quoted here regularly (maybe I just missed it).

It's also interesting that, as I recall, Mr. Piper referred to 003 as his version of 0846 (if I recall that's why he put #23 on it).

Arlie, most of the guys involved were big picture guys (Mr. Piper has many things going at once) they probobly didn't have time to get get caught up in the details. If the chassis arrived with a slight tweak but was usable, I would think he would have hammered the builder on price and then adjusted the suspension to make it work. I think the key to answering your questions is finding some of the guys that built (or repaired) it back in '74, if any are still around.

My present issue is that, based on the posts here, it appears 0900b and 003 are not the same chassis, if they are not, what are the circumstances under which Mr. Piper ordered 003 and where is 0900b?

Regards,

Art S.

 

0900b was ordered to be built by David on behalf of an American customer. I beleive 0900b's chassis was built after 2000 in the UK. Max stated that it was and that this was the fourth time the P4 plans that David received from "old man Ferrari" were used to build a chassis. 0900, 0900A, and 0900B are built to P4 Plans. "Same Batch" is how Max put it. (See pages 48,49,65-79) 0900B is in the US and I have a full set of photo's of 0900B's chassis. The forward chassis engine mounts of 0900B triangulate at the point necessary to mate with a P4 engine as they do in 0900, 0900A, 0856, 0858, and 0860. By now you probably know where the forward chassis engine mount of 0846's chassis triangulate and that is at a different point, the point necessary to mate with a P3 engine.

We're replowing the same ground.

 

It's okay, they haven't banned it in China yet and I'll be back stateside in about 30 days for good...

 

Nathan,

I think we possibly are confusing what Piper says, ie:

Piper declares here that he has OWNED the engine, gearbox and other parts SINCE 1974 ... maybe he actually put the parts together after 1977?

OR maybe Jim is right, it was shipped to Switzerland ... again Piper does not race just in England. Saying that I was under the impression that Marcel was looking at a chassis NOT a complete car.

Or maybe Marcel has his dates wrong?

Also if the customs documents refer to the car as #0846, why does Piper now refer to the car as #0003? I know he (according to a recent post) referred to it as 'his version of #0846 ' ... hmmm. I guess he would not be the first person to fudge customs documents ... not saying he did though

Pete

 

Whew!!! For a second there, I thought we were going down another slippery slope!

Bill

 

I think this ongoing ski slope has plenty of slippery slopes. The question is: who has the nerve to start down them??? (some of the untouched white powder is awfully tempting, but I don't think that some folks could handle it without going ballistic)

 

Is there a summary of 003's racing history somewhere on the net? That would at least answer the question of where it was in 1977.

 

One interesting thing 0900B brings up is that AD, and Piper was well aware of this as he also sold AD a "P3" Block, set out to make a 412P replica, not a P4 replica. Now at one time David owned 412P 0854 YET WHEN HE HAD A FOURTH CHASSIS MADE HE HAD IT MADE FROM THE SAME P4 PLANS THAT HE STATED 0003/0846 WAS, AND 0900, AND 0900A, WERE MADE TO. IF HE HAD P3/412P PLANS, OR REALIZED FROM OWNING 0854 THAT P3 AND P4 CHASSIS ARE NOT EXACTLY THE SAME WHY DIDN'T HE HAVE AD'S CHASSIS MADE TO P3 PLANS AS THAT'S WHAT AD WANTED AND PIPER KNEW AD WAS GOING TO USE A "P3" BLOCK BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PIPER HAD SOLD AD??

YEARS AFTER HE SOLD ME 0003/0846 DAVID STILL THINKS MY CHASSIS IS BUILT TO P4 PLANS AS NATHAN PROVED:

"I recently visited David Piper, and there is no doubt in my mind that David knows exactly what he had and it WASN'T 0846. David explained the double engine mounting points. It’s simple.

According to an email (from one of the more open-minded Glick supporters)
“So Piper got three identical chassis frames made, all with the rear engine bay configured to take the P4 engine, which has horizontal cross-bolted engine mountings in the block. But then to fit a P3 engine, which has projecting lugs on the side, he would have needed the side tubes in the engine bay to be lower, as the lugs go over the tubes.”

The chassis was built to P4 plans but modified by David Piper to fit a P3 engine. (See photo which shows 003 fitted with a P3 engine, which it had for years.)
Not the other way round as Glick claims."


TO FIT HIS "P3" ENGINE INTO HIS P4 CHASSIS AD HAS HAD TO DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID HE WOULD HAVE TO DO. REACH BACK FROM THE P4 CHASSIS ENGINE MOUNTS TO THE "P3" ENGINE, ENGINE MOUNT. BACKWARDS NOT FORWARD. START AT POST 389. PIPER WAS WRONG AND NATHAN'S PHOTO AND RESEARCH PROVED IT. AS I SAID A LONG TIME AGO:

Re read pages 63-79 very carefully. Note the forward engine mounts on my chassis and the triangulation of the chassis tubes at that point (P3 Chassis). Compare that with the forward chassis engine mount and the position and triangulation of that chassis forward engine mount at that point in chassis where it is attached to the P3 engine of 0844 (P3 chassis). Look at the forward chassis engine mount and the triangulation of the chassis tubes at that point and the configuration of those tubes on chassis 0856 where it is attached to it's P4 engine (P4 Chassis). Look at the rear engine mount triangulation of my chassis (P3 Chassis). Look at the rear engine mount triangulation of 0900 and 0900a (Built to P4 Chassis Blueprints). Compare with 0856's Rear Engine Mount triangulation (P4 Chassis).

OF COURSE 0003/0846 can be fitted with either a P3 or a P4 engine. That is the ENTIRE POINT. Once again this "Bombshell" proves my point. What you CANNOT DO is fit a P3 engine into a P4 chassis without building a triangle that REACHES BACK to the P3 engine's, engine mount from the point of triangulation of THE P4 forward chassis engine mount. IF YOU TOOK A P4 CHASSIS AND REACHED FORWARD FROM THE TRIANGULATED FORWARD CHASSIS ENGINE MOUNT, AS DAVID REACHED FORWARD FROM THE TRIANGULATED FORWARD CHASSIS ENGINE MOUNT OF MY CHASSIS WHEN HE FIT A P4 ENGINE INTO MY CHASSIS, IT WOULD ONLY WORK IF YOU STARTED WITH A P3 CHASSIS.

AD's 0900B's chassis PROVES that I am right. AD had to reach BACKWARDS TO FIT his "P3" ENGINE INTO HIS BUILT TO P4 PLANS CHASSIS. IF HE HAD A P4 ENGINE IT WOULD DROP INTO 0900B'S CHASSIS WITH NO MODIFACATION.
IN 0003/0846 A P3 ENGINE DROPS IN WITH NO MODIFICATION BECAUSE AS NATHAN'S PHOTO PROVES THE CHASSIS IN MY CAR IS A P3 CHASSIS BUT IF YOU WANT TO DROP IN A P4 ENGINE YOU HAVE TO REACH FORWARD. THE POLAR OPPOSITE AS MANY HAVE POINTED OUT.

 

See pages 14 and 15.

 

Again Piper states that the car has been in his continuous possession since 1974 (which is when he bought the parts from Ferrari) ... I thus do not believe that it was actually built in 1974 ... it may very well have been built AFTER 1977, and Piper stored these parts in Switzerland where Marcel viewed them until he decided what to do with them.

And I continued reading (again) ...

Therefore as I discussed with Nathan ... the block height does indeed appear to be taller for the P4 engine versus the F1 engine, and thus Jim's engine HAS to be a P4 one (if you want to ignore the other tell tail signs, like casting differences, etc.).

Pete

 

The fifth paragraph on page 102 speaks to a point both you and Ney raised.
I also have personal knowledge of chassis plates being removed for various reasons including giving them to mechanics as souvenirs as happened to the Ford MK-IV that Dan and AJ drove to first OA at Le Mans in 1967. The Big Red one that sits in the Henry Ford Museum.

 

Yes I have heard or this practice before ... and for Arlie I have quoted it:

Pete

 

I was hoping for something along the line of a list of specific races and finishes. Did it come with a logbook or anything?

 

No just what's described on the pages I've cited. Documents speak for themselves. What people say they saw or believe they remember are what they are but in the end the chassis speaks for itself.

After examining the evidence a Theoretical Physicist believes that my chassis is the remains of 0846. Someone who believes in Big Foot feels that without the shipping receipt from the trash bin where Ferrari says they put the remains of 0846 it isn't.

A person who drove 0846 three times feels it is. The person who proved it is doesn't. As DM/PC said: "Funny thing war..."
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