The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Slippery slopes are fun, and open, rather than close the mind.

As an example, Let's look at the Pythagorean theorem. We accept it as fact, but in "reality" it is NOT true. We say it is true because WE created the concept of a straight line, defined as the shortest distance between two points. In "reality", there is no such thing as a straight line. Because everything within existence is interconnected, the universe is made up of curves, due to the physical law of attraction.

I guess my point is all that we, as humans, have is perception. We base our beliefs on whatever system we thing works best for us.

Since no one here directly observed what happened with 846 through out it's entire existence, as a scientist, I use probability theory. Given the evidence we do have, the MOST LIKELY SCENARIO is that Jim's car is 846.

I freely admit that my belief is only that, and NOT fact....but in over 1000 posts on the subject, no one has come up with a viable, logical, rational theory that contradicts my belief.

 

Stuart,
On closed minds...
If you never change your mind, why have one? - Edward deBono

It would seem, that I would enjoy a discussion on science, religion and philosophy with you.

Agreed!

On Jim's 0864... If, from my remote location, having not personally viewed the car or other evidence that has been presented and if I believe that Jim has been honorable and forthright in presentation of his documentation, Yes, I believe that there is not a more logical conclusion to be drawn than, it is the real deal.

Arlie,
I know you want cold steel, hard case evidence, it looks so far, like that won't be the case. I hope that somewhere along the winding road of this saga, someone can come up with the missing link(s), but to me at this point, that will be the icing on the cake!

Regards,
Bill

 

Was it Sherlock Holmes who said: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"?


Paul M

(from 'The Sign of Four')

 

So why do you site a SECOND hand tale of what Tom Meade "remembered" as documentation on page 21 and 22 of your document? Dancing with 2 partners again.

An 8MM film was shot in broad daylight of Bigfoot in 1967. Where is the film of the chassis of 0846 being hauled away from the Modena junkyard?

 

Because, to state the bleedin' obvious for the umpteenth time, the chassis in Jim's car exists and has all the physical features previously described, which you don't answer............and that film of Bigfoot is all there is; no footprints, no droppings, zilch (and also someone's confessed the film was faked).


Paul M

 

Arlie,
This is all just supposition and I pretty well know it won't do any good but...

If the chassis went to the Modena scrapyard, it is not hard to imagine that someone from the factory tipped off a "friend" that it was going there, knowing full well, that it was worth somewhat more Lire than scrap steel, to some others. This un-named factory/race team employee, would have probably put his job at high risk to do this, I doubt that he would have called in the camera crews to document his indiscretion.

If the scrapyard or the frame makers that might have grabbed the frame from the yard, had any financial stake, in their relationship with the factory, I seriously doubt they would have called in the evening news either.

Anybody that comes up with pics or film of Sasquatch stands to make some $$ and get their name in the news.

Regards,
Bill

 

Allow me to cite John Landis, as this is rephrased for you and the captive audience:

*ahem*

An 8MM film was shot in broad daylight of a guy in a suit made by John Chambers (makeup mastermind of Planet of the Apes) in 1967. Where is the film of the chassis of 0846 being hauled away from the Modena junkyard?

 

It's interesting to read the last entry in 0818's history according to Barchetta.

0818 64
330P, RHD
Date Result Event Driver # Reference
64 - Maranello Concessionaires, GB
prototype - long tail
64/mar/21 dnf
transmisson
lap 139 12h Sebring Graham Hill/
Jo Bonnier #24 Scarlet Passion p62
64/may/31 disqual. 1000km Nuerburgring Graham Hill/
Innes Ireland #142 FMT p191

64/jun/21 2nd OA 24h Le Mans Graham Hill/
Jo Bonnier #14 FaLM p73 C85 p10 P60 p261
FIC p207 Scarlet Passion p85, 246
64/aug/03 4th Guards Trophy Brands Hatch Graham Hill
64/aug/29 1st Tourist Trophy, Goodwood Graham Hill #3 FIC p208
64/oct/11 1st 1000km Paris, Monthlery Graham Hill/
Jo Bonnier
64 3rd Monza Graham Hill/
Ludovico Scarfiotti
65/apr/25 dnf 1000km Monza Joakim Bonnier/
David Piper #67
65/may/16 9th 500km Spa Michael Parkes
65/jul/04 dnf 12h Reims Graham Hill/
Jo Bonnier
66 - Rosemary Protheroe, UK for Richard Elmer "Dick" Protheroe
- rebodied by Drogo in P2 style
66/apr/28 - fat. acc. in practice for TT Oulton Park
66/apr/28 - destroyed & written off

While "written off" is accurate your photo proves that "destroyed" regarding the chassis remains of 0818 is not.

Is this accurate? What happen after "destroyed & written off", after Tom Meade some how wound up with the chassis remains, transported them to UK and sold them to Piper?

Best

 

Thank you for the additional evidence. Anyone think that Prova Mo number on the tail of the car in the upper right photo might tell us something

 

FORGET THAT B.S. ON THAT WEBSITE!!! MORE ERRORS THAN FACTS, AS USUAL. TOO BAD I DON'T HAVE BIGGER LETTERS TO WRITE!!
Marcel Massini

 

Where in those photos are the remains of 0846? I see a reference to the chassis of 0818 and some "bits". Can somebody do a photoshop and outline the pieces in that picture that have been positively identified as being the chassis of 0846?

 

Actually you have:
TOO BAD...

 

Did David rebuild 0818? Where is it today?

Best

 

I never said that these four photos show any bits of 0846. I said P4 bits and chassis 0818 (underneath the P4 body parts).
Marcel Massini

 

LET'S N O T DISCUSS 0818 ON THIS THREAD. PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE!!
Too difficult. There are two such cars today, both claiming to be 0818. One owned by Egon Hofer in Salzburg, Austria, the other with Fabrizio Violati in San Marino. Several law suits still pending.
Marcel Massini

 

But that is not possible. After all the chassis has been written off and destroyed...as clearly visible on your pictures.

 

Marcel,

Thank you for contributing. In my opinion, your post is probobly the most interesting thing posted here in the last 10 pages! As related to 0846, how is 0818 listed in the Ferrari ledgers? What bacame of the chassis according to Ferrari, was it scrapped or sold to...


Arlie,

Look, its BIGFOOT!!!

Whether Marcel's pictures show 0846, 0818 or Sasquach partly misses the point. The point is, it shows what these guys were dealing with and who they were - dumpster divers scrounging old racecar junk. This is stuff they bought of got out of junkyards or whereever and brought back to life for their own puroses. Although I'm not yet totally convinced, I personally think this significantly helps Jim's theory.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Thanks Marcel. That was my point. It is pretty much anybody's guess as to what might be on that truck beyond what you specifically know to have been there.
And yes Art, it shows the general nature of the scrounging that occured, but what MIGHT have happened does not necessarily prove what DID happen, if anything. (I'm still not convinced that in the wide world of scroungers, rebuilders, and racers, that somebody might have done some of their own unauthorized P3/4 chassis reproduction work.)

And just for Wax: I WILL ADMIT that Marcel's pictures show an actual Ferrari, if you will admit that the Patterson film shows an actual Bigfoot!!!!!

 

That's exactly what I was going to say.

Part of Arlie's problem is that he can not wrap his head around the fact that these were not million-dollar automobiles in the years after they raced. These photos clearly illustrate that the guys who wanted P car parts then are no different from your average Joe (or Arlie) at the local junkyard today- no crowds, no red carpet or police escorts. Just a truck dropping off a bunch of "crap".

Thanks again for the photos Marcel! I especially love these four.

BTW- out of respect for Marcel I'm not going to post an enhanced version of these, but anyone who wants to play with the "curves" adjustment on Photoshop can bring out a bit more detail.

 

Hey, watch that kind of talk. Some of my best stuff is "crap"!

 

It would be great if you could keep your "best stuff" to yourself then.

>8^)
ER

 

To partly defend Arlie;

Arlie is right that someone could have made their own chassis, or her might be some other theory for its creation. However, the people involved were wheeler-dealers/racing junkies that hung around Maranello and picked up the used up junk and leftovers. If this chassis is not made to P4 blueprints, its much more likely that some of this used junk was resurected into Mr. Pipers 003. As far as I know, the scrapped carcas of 0846 is the best candidate.

Arlie, to me, the guys in the picture don't look like they would build a proper new P3 or P4 chassis from scratch, do you think they would? Mind you, I would have loved to have been there along side them, digging for gold in worthless, dead Ferrari racers. However, if they didn't build a new chassis is there another possible source for what Jim has?

Regards,

Art S.

 

Well, I'm not an expert in photographic psycho forensic analysis of the psychological makeup of early 70s Italian junkyard scroungers of the Ferrari faction, so I can't say if they look like they would or wouldn't build a new chassis of anything. But there are some good ole boys right here in Arkansas that can weld up a very nice dirt track chassis in a very professional manner.
According to the "Phoenix theory", the damaged remains of 0846 were used in Piper's 0003 replicar. If we assume that the battered 0846 remains came from the junkyard, for all anybody knows, a competant welder could have looked at the junkyard beaten remains of the 0846 chassis and used it as a pattern to make another chassis. It was just a bunch of tubing. Why used a bent, twisted,chassis that had suffered racing damage, fire damage, and junkyard damage, when you could simply measure the tubing and weld up a new one. Use it as a pattern. Could that explain the missing chassis numbers? After all, the car WAS going to be used for high speed racing by Piper, was it not? Why take chances with a damaged hunk of rusty junk that, according to the theory, had set out in the junk yard for a few years.

Unless of course one believes that Piper would have never noticed that the chassis that he paid for was just a recycled piece of junkyard fodder.

I know that I would certainly bet my life on a recycled piece of junk at 180MPH............not.

Even small time drag racers used to paint the chassis of their cars with white paint so that it was easier to spot cracks in the frames. Certainly Piper took a little more concern for his own safety than just saying "yeah that frame looks pretty. Strap me in the seat and hello 180MPH".

 

Arlie,

If I understand correctly, the coolant and oil lines flow through the chassis. I would think that building a copy requires more than just someone with good welding ability, a hacksaw and a ruler.

Interestingly, the mess under the body panels that Marcel stated was 0818 is likely the basis of at least one of the two cars that Marcel suggested were vying for the claim to the serial number. With that in mind, it appears that heap wasn't just used for patterns it was used for more racing.

By the way, I like the white paint idea. It may be back woods logic but it makes sense to me (mind you, if the crack was big enough to see and I discovered it AFTER a quarter mile pass...).

Regards,

Art S.

 

All the stuff on the back of the truck was probably worth $100 in 1974, so I don't think Piper would have been particularly concerned about what it actually was.

BTW, the highest price paid for ANY classic car at that time was only $59,000, for a complete, running, driving Bugatti Atlantic..