The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

No, it's not a problem for me; it's just useless, baseless, biased trash...

Why do i care...? Because Mr. G. is my friend and i'm tired of seeing this garbage being regurgitated every so often... My life IS fullfilling, thank you, but this has nothing to do with that... Jim may not have clear, non-negotiable proof that he has 0846, but NO ONE ELSE has clear, non-negotiable proof that it ISN'T... Until someone steps forward with either or, it's just an ongoing debate...

 

A poll...for outsider's opinions....on someone else's car....No thanks.

 

Have you seen the car? I have.
Have you seen the area in the frame that coincides with where 0846 would have crashed? I have.
I just don't see how you expect to vote on these things without hearing all the history explained and seeing the actual car in conjunction with the history.

 

this is out of control. The basis of the poll is deficient because it does not provide as an option what Jim himself has stated as his belief. This is what he has said, as you quoted above:

"As for what I've come to believe, I now believe beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that a large portion of my chassis are the remains of 0846 and I'm in the continuing process of sharing the basis of that belief with Ferrari S.P.A. among others"

Unlike others in the vintage Ferrari business, Jim has been open, open, open about his process and his theories. He has shared his theories with not only this site, but with Ferrari and the world's experts in other fora. I have a vested interest in keeping the poseurs and the frauds out of the arena since my father has perhaps the world's most unmolested S.II 500 Mondial. So I take a very dim view of people who say that their car is something that, in fact, it is not.

Would you be assuaged if Jim started calling his car "(mostly) 0846"? how about "(more of) 0846 (than anyone else has)"?? I believe that if someone was able to present credible evidence to Jim that Ferrari SpA buried/crushed 0846 after its roasting, and that it did not make its way into Piper's hands, then Jim would be the first to retract his beliefs about his car.

my .03

 

All this could easily be settled if the owner of the car in question provided the necessry proof.

I don't think thats too much to ask since JG opened the door by suggesting the car is 0846 on this forum.

Pretty simple isn't it?

Ed

 

Maybe we should ask Tom Meade. Apparently he knows something about the fate of a certain scrapped chassis. See post #5 of http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16451

 

Any way of knowing who voted which way?

I'm sure Jim is a great guy NNO, but that doesn't mean his car is real or fake. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but if it is...why would anyone sell it? Too many questions for this to be answered, and yes Jim opened the door on this, so I believe that questioning it's authenticity is perfectly fine.

 

That pretty well sums up my feelings. You've been on the attack about this subject since day 1.

 

Not the way I set it up, Jay. But I suspect that you could hazard a good guess as to which way I voted.
Incedentally, I did also tick (check) the bottom box - an option that is open to any voter.

 

Jim IS a great guy; whether or not he has 0846 is totally irrelevant as far as my relationship with him is concerned... He's just some really cool dude that i like to hang out with (granted, we've only hung out 2 or 3 times)... His cars don't make him cooler... but that's not the argument here... The argument is whether his P4 is 0846 or not...

He opened the door by saying he BELIEVES to have 0846's chassis... That has led to a whole barrage of negative comments, statements and whatever from folks like P4Replica... Why...? Why bash the guy...?

What P4Replica DOESN'T know, as ZJPJ has pointed out, is the history lesson that came with seeing the car in person... The documents, the details, the photos, the whole 9 yards... Now SOME of that has been posted here... Some of it hasn't... If something HASN'T been posted, then there's a perfectly good reason why... i'm sure you folks can figure that reason out...

 

Exactly; another reason why i'm so fired up about it... If you folks go back into the archives and look at Jim's posts about 0846 back in 11/2002, you'll see that our very own Mr. Ausbrooks questioned Mr. G. about 0846 and proof thereof etcetera and so forth... However, Wayne did it in such a way as to not offend anyone and show that he was honestly curious and not trying to be negative or jealous or whatever...

If this were approached from a different angle, you folks wouldn't have to hear my mouth (or see my text, whatever...)

 

As for recognition, there has been implicit recognition by F that Jim indeed is the owner of 0846. Same goes for Pininfarina, I believe.

Also, with regard to value, that's not why he's doing it. He has no plans ever to sell. It's to preserve a piece of history. That's why he's gone to so much trouble and expense to investigate the car and run numerous tests. As a related aside: his Mk IV was passed off as the LeMans winner. Because of his desire for historical accuracy (not value), he did research and uncovered that the car actually came in fourth, and changed its livery accordingly. Enough said.

 

I'll vote with Jim G., as I think he has the best info available as well as personal integrity required to make an honest assesment. He is involved with the history surrounding the car, as well as the guts to spend the money to bring it back from the trash pile!

Shame it didn't have the plate on the frame like the 250LM I saw at the track in Phoenix Monday, but it's an imperfect world.

I have read every thread on this site, and the OTHER one, and have absolutely no reason to doubt that it's what he says it is.

Like NNO, I have a hard time understanding what all the rock throwing is about.

I didn't vote. The internet does not effect the real world, I've been told.

 

I really don't understand why everybody is so down on P4Replica's postings. I have followed his questions with extreme interest. Probably because I believe that in a strict legal sense, his questions about 0846 have validity to them. To me, the main question is this: IF 0846 is undoubtedly an original P4, then why all the questions? If a person is absolutely sure that it won't rain on Saturday afternoon, then why does he pack an umbrella in the picnic basket? If 0846 has an undeniable pedigree, then why is there still this cloud of doubt over it? The old say, "Where there's smoke, there's fire" comes to mind. I've run across this serial number, vin plate, 80% repro, all original,
40% repro sort of questions among the Corvette world for a long time. This whole matter just orbits back to my own personal doubts. And nothing against Jim. I'm just looking at it from a logical sense like Mr. Spock.

For a moment, let's accept the fact that 75% of 0846's frame is original. Is the rest of the car original? If the engine is not the original 0846 engine, then add one more "thumbs down". (I don't remember all the details from the old postings, but I believe the engine was not the original 0846 engine. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.) We know that the body is now aluminum which was never installed on the car. Even though the body was supplied WITH the car as it bounced around all those years, does that make it THE body that went with 0846? It would seem to me that the only REAL body for 0846 would be the one that was on the car when it was raced. If THAT body was destroyed in the fire at LeMans, well, then that's just too bad. Therefore, the original body is long gone, and, in my opinion, anything else that is put on the frame is just a rebody. Unless that aluminum body has a data plate indicating that it belongs on the frame of 0846, it has no provenance to 0846. Unless Jim has signed documentation that proves his aluminum body was supplied by Ferrari for 0846, common logic would seem to state that the 0846 is now a rebody. That may anger the Ferrarista, but that just seems solid logic.

So to throw a little water on the flames being aimed at P4Replica's remarks, can we not truthfully say the following:

As it is being currently restored, is not Jim's P4 Ferrari project in the following condition????

1. a frame that is only partially original to 0846
2. a body without a serial number that was never installed on the frame
of 0846 at any point in it's life before the restoration project
3. an engine that was never installed in 0846 at any point in it's life
before the restoration project

If the above 3 points are correct, is the car REALLY P4 Ferrari serial number
0846?

I'm not bashing Jim or his project in any way. I would be proud to own the car he is building. But let's not flame P4Replica too bad just because he can think like Mr. Spock and attempt to draw some logical conclusions. And before anybody blasts anybody for not knowing "all the facts" concerning Jim's car, just remember that this is an informal message board, and nothing that we say here really has any consequence to anybody else. It's not like OUR opinions will be the ultimate judge and jury concerning Jim's car. Jim is the ultimate jury, and his verdict seems to already be in. His verdict is:

GUILTY of Ferrari enjoyment. A life sentence is currently being served.

 

i really dont care how much % wise the orginality of the car turns out to be. Mr G is a priceless asset to both Fchat and the world ferrari community. i was offered a visit to see his cars many moons ago, before all the "public fchat" visits, and i was not able to go due to work responsiblities. the car is a rolling work of art and history. the very essense of the passion of the drivers, mechanic's and Ferrari itself can be represented by that car, rising from the ashes as a phoenix does. time marches on and those folks from that era disappear, yet here is this stunning testimony to Ferrari and racing itself. these race cars were beaten to death out of passion for the marque and for racing itself. just as we torture experimental aircraft at work to make our products safer, faster, and the World Leader, so did Ferrari to win. what is " original"? a bunch of 37 year old metal, or the bits and pieces still left that have been apart of history. just as a soldier takes a bit of soil from the battle field home, so do old race cars capture the spirit of the times they reigned.

i dont know what P4-KITCAR-Racer guys problem is, but i am sick of these inflamatory threads, the jealousy in his posts about Jim's car turns my stomach, its as if p4Racers own passion and knowledge have turned sour on him, the thrill is gone maybe???? there are folks here who have shared so much of what they have with " us " as a community. i may be a mere beat up 308 owner, but i still feel the passion for the breed none the less. Jim if / when you read this thread, thanks from all the little guys out there, for giving us something to strive for. michael

 

And another thanks to Jim for posting photos and his experiences with his cars.

I think he's been very open with his cars on this board, and I am certainly not qualified to judge its authenticity or not. The restoration is a beautiful work of art, one that any one of us would be proud to own.

I, and probably most of us on this board, look forward to Jim's posts on his cars.

Thank you Jim.

Dom

 

I feel like I'm watching re-runs on TV. This is the fifth go around with nothing new. I believe the definition of insanity is repeatedly taking the same actions and expecting a different result.

If I recall, some information has been shared, that is hints at an outcome. The conclusive information is stated to come later. When, and if, Napolis wishes to share this information, then productive discussion will take place.

Art S.

 

P4Replica, I wonder, as this thread points to the strengths in the opposing argument, what evidence you have to support your claim? (point by point instead of listing threads will make it easier...even if you just copy paste older posts)

 

Even that won't be sufficient since all of his previous posts regarding this issue have been equal to this one with malicious intent...

It amazes me how someone can go to such lengths to demand substance of one's BELIEFS, yet the opposite belief can't be equally substantiated...

You know, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, if you strip Jim of ALL of his cars and that beautiful house and the Maserati and this and that and whatever else and you look at him for HIM, you'd find he's got just as much character and "patina" as ANY P4, storied or not...

 

Malicious intent or not, I want to know his side. There has to be a reason for why he feels it ness. to post such....

 

Um, the word has appeared in this thread several times, already; it's called jealousy.

 

I dont know. One thing I found about the Ferrari community that jealously simply is not as big a factor as it is on other web forums. (That does not hold true obviously for indiviual cases, but it true in a gen. sense) I have yet to determine what is the case here, but I dont feel like going through the older posts...I have 6 other forums to moderate.

 

Omar -
In short, 0846 was wrecked. Piper bought left over parts and had several cars made from these parts. There was also a P5 show car built, supposedly on 0846's chasis. In other words, there were several cars claiming to be 0846. I'm assuming this is what he's basing his objections on.
However, further research and findings indicate that the chasis of 0846, as well as a bunch of other original bits, now resides in Jim G's garage. If P4Replica is basing all this on the P5 info. or any other facet of the car's storied history, then he is basing his claim on old news, which has since been to some extent refuted and cleared up.

 

Zach, thank you for clearing that for me and summarizing the whole situation.