The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

On that note I think the thing I remember most is whatever she may or may not be driving her on the original Targa Florio course is not something I'll ever forget.

Best and Thanks To All!!
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Jim,

Just to be clear, because I didn't see any reference to it in my version of the dcument set(and Arlie will ask again if you don't answer), you added the number plate to the frametube that had been replaced after Lemans, correct?

Regards,

Art S.

 

Yup it's been Public Record for many years that that is a replacement chassis tag. Interestingly if the Le Mans Documents are correct 0846 may have had a different chassis tag/ stamping in 1966 and 1967 as well as not having one at all on the day of it's press debut...
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Could the Moderator responsible for shutting down the 0846 thread please explain his actions? If it was at Jim G.'s request that's one thing, but if you were just tired of reading it, please unlock it and put it on ignore but leave it open for the rest of us as useful new information is added from time to time.

Art S.

 

I'm just gonna stick this up here for the time being....... I haven't been involved with moderating the 0846 issue lately but it's my impression that it got shut down because it was felt that Arlie and a few others were just hounding Jim and that there wasn't really anything constructive being added. My personal feeling is that the discussion should be left open but it would seem like some rules need to be laid out so we don't have the same old broken record playing. Give this thing some time and I (or one of the other mods) will think up a way to handle things.

 

This isn't related directly to the 0846 thread, but the 125/159 thread I started has been very interesting as well (and touches a bit on the 0846 subject). If you haven't been reading you should check it out, at least I have learned some good information.

 

Thanks Mark!

I agree with Walter, and I think if you filter what you read, the same can be said for the 0846 thread. Actually, in my opinion, the recent conversations were remaining relatively cordial. By Jim's recent posts, especially when he shared his driving impressions of the car, he did not seem irritated and the posts were, for me, an enjoyable read. If it wasn't bothering Jim, why should it bother anyone else. Also, although Arlie can be irritating, some of his posts (not the majority, but some )have lead to interesting disussions and new information being added.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I would never dare to speak for Jim, but I think that even he felt that this thread has run his course. Jim has laid out his hypothesis for the world to see. Those who disagree prefer to remain behind the curtain and use Arlie as a proxy.

The bottom line is that the only person who will have anything new to add will be Jim Glickenhaus. All the counterpoints have been recycled so many times that even Jim is losing his patience.

Dale

 

I don't think the subject of 0846 has run it's course at all. What ran it's course time and again were the virtual "neener, neener, neener" posts which ultimately led to creation of the "one and only 0846 debate thread."

There's different ways to be bored - not reading/posting is one - incessantly "tickling" is another, but, like playing the same song over and again that everyone knows the lyrics to, it's also a good way to turn people off, thereby crashing and ruining a party. The party need not be a meeting of the get-along gang, but, if one is going to not take educated guesses, but, take on the actual responsibility of asking educated questions, one should read that which has been so freely offered time and again - information in the downloadable .pdf. Know before you go "Hi, it's me again - neener, neener, neener."

Damn shame to fall into that kind of justification for shutting a thread down, really, as there is still much insight on many levels - historical, technical and otherwise to be shared about this beast and it's big / between 3 and 4.

 

I admit to being more vexed by Tifosi's light-handed rebuke than by what I perceived to be the regular postings of a troll. We are all adults here and if occasionally someone steps over the line, good breeding demands we affect not to notice.

It has been a very interesting thread regarding an amazing automobile and I shall miss it.

 

Extremely very well said, if I say so myself.

Dale

 

I have never posted to the 0846 thread. However, it is required reading on a regular basis for me. I find the thread fascinating. When someone posts something I don't care to read, I skip it. Not sure why it had to closed. No one's forcing anyone else to read it or making anyone respond. If the person(s) making pedantic posts is simply ignored by those who do not care to read his (their) input, they will eventually stop posting.

I vote for opening it again for what it is worth. I know I don't have any pull here. I'm in the silent majority usually but this sensoring thing (and the constant mostly nasty and silly responses telling people that their post is a repost) have driven me to write this.

Wew, glad I got that off my chest.

Alberto

 

I couldn't agree more!

EDIT: Except, I may have posted to the thread a few times in the early days...

 

Arlie coming in and de-railing the whole thing with his twisted logic really ruins it. As Jim pointed out, it's pretty clear that he hasn't read the whole 0846 story (and has a vendetta against people who can afford such things).

As much as I like reading the updates, I consider the matter closed and can accept the thread being locked (although granting JG mod access to this particular forum would side-step this). Anyways, It seems that we're now onto the 159/166-001/002 debate which I find much more interesting.

C.

 

So a couple of guys walk into a crowded room, full of people carrying on an intelligent conversation on a topic they are passionate about.

Those couple of guys argue, ad nauseum, that the rest of the room is full of idiots who don't know what they are talking about.

So, instead of the bouncers showing those couple of guys the door, you empty the room and send everyone home.

Yup, I see the logic now.

DM

 

This is the point. Arlie has proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that by continuously posting things ad nausea that are not true, have been proven not true, that his only purpose in the 0846 thread is to personally harass which is a permanently bannable offence and he should have been banned for committing it long ago.

One of many indisputable examples of this is his posting that David has not commented on the chassis he sold me publicly.

Not only has David commented quite clearly that the chassis is sold me is built to "P4 Plans" he recently reaffirmed that statement and GAVE NATHAN A PHOTO THAT DAVID THOUGHT PROVED THAT COMMENT AND WHICH NATHAN POSTED IN THE THREAD. I and other pointed out how David's reaffirmation really ended that part of the Debate forever as it is 180 degrees wrong but that not the point. The point is that Arlie months later stated that David had not commented when he knew full well that that wasn't true and in doing so showed a reckless disregard for the truth and once again harassed me with no justification what so ever. Arlie should have been banned a long time ago and if his untruthfull personally harassing posting is allowed in the 0846 thread I'm out of it.

For many years I've offered to let any reputable expert examine 0846's chassis and 0854's chassis for comparison to determine whether or not the chassis I bought from David is P3 or P4. Many have and many have told me exactly what they think. I repeat NO ONE WHO HAS INSPECTED THE CHASSIS OF 0846 IN LIGHT OF MY PUBLISHED FINDINGS HAS EVER DISPUTED THOSE FINDINGS OR STATED THAT THEY ARE WRONG. SOME HAVE STATED THAT THEY BELIEVE I HAVE PROVEN IT CONCULSIVELY AND OTHERS HAVE STATED THAT IT IS AT THE VERY LEAST PROBABLE AND ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE.

Should any reputable expert still wish to inspect the chassis of 0846 they are still welcome and they are welcome to publicly state what ever they think after that inspection as they have been for years.

They time for "Couldn't have happened" "What about the Chassis Stamps" has long passed.

In addition FOR MANY YEARS THE WORLDWIDE LEGAL IDENTITY OF THE CAR I OWN HAS BEEN: "1967 FERRARI P 3/4 0846" and ANYONE who states that that is not true is showing a reckless disregard for the truth and will be dealt with accordingly.

 

Dave, have you ever gone to a party that lasted too long? The sun is coming up and everything is shades of grey. The beer is flat. Your mouth tastes like a cat slept in it.

This is what has happened to this thread. Minds are made up. Everybody has said all they're gonna say. The only person who will have anything new to add to this stone soup will be Jim G. I'm sure that he will update us with any new info that he uncovers.

Dale

 

Could not disagree more.

It's not a party, it's a discussion, a mostly good discussion, where, even now, occasional additions should be made by those who have something of value to add.

If Arlie was to discover conclusive proof to support his argument, let him post it. If Nathan has a valid point, post away. If P4Skett was still here, I'm sure he could find usefull information to impart (If he could control his temper). Marcel and other histoians will no doubt come upon additional information over the coming months or years. If Jim came upon a new tidbit of information that would further enlighten us, he would surely post it.

I know there's lots still to learn. I sent an article Jim's way some months ago that he hadn't seen on 0846, so there's still more to know, read and digest. I personally can't learn enough about Ferraris, and welcome any new information about any of the cars that I find interesting.

On the other hand, if you want to post, as wax so eloquently put it, "neener, neener, neener" stuff, then stay the hell out.

Actually, that thread could probably use a mod of its own. One who knows about the debate, understands the issues, and could weed out or tone down the rhetoric so that the conversation could continue.

Of course, I could be completely off base here.

DM

 

Just curious, (before the thread closed, you mentioned) this. As long as you didnt claim it to be the actually car(complete). What would happen if you did ?

 

Just to be clear one last time. Ferrari and I have and have had a long, pleasant, and mutually respectful relationship for years. Neither of us would dream of stating something that wasn't true about anything. Their request was simply to endeavor to help the press understand the entire situation clearly. Ferrari scrapped 0846, they did not sell the chassis remains of 0846 to anyone, I rebuilt the car I presently own with chassis remains and other parts as delineated in my document that I and many others believe were from 0846. No more. No less.

 

For now the issue is closed..... I merged and stuck up here so we don't have another "what happened to....." thread.

 

Praise be! How's progress? Has the purple tape been put to good use?

 

At this point, as a scientist, it's the DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION and ENGINEERING that prove to me that the car is the only P3/4 built, not anyone's opinion...

I think re-opening the thread was a bad idea. Is it really possible to get any more PHYSICAL evidence than we have right now? I say no.....