The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

O.K., O.K. Jim .... I admit it - I was wrong.
























It was your second-ever post on FerrariChat - not your First. !

See: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/155943.html (and scroll to the bottom of the page).

 

I always thought #0846 was completely destroyed, and written off by the factory.

 

Oh, dear.

 

P-u-l-e-e-z let's not go there again !!! LOL !!

If you've got a spare week or so, to catch up with your reading, I can supply a list of all the other '0846 discussion threads' ....

.... besides this - the 'official' one. There's er, um .... 'a few'.

 

From the new Ferrari Owners Site copyrighted, published, and content controlled by Ferrari S.p.A.:

12/18/07
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roadtripguy, meet Mr. G. and Paul......LOL!

"Ask the guy who drives one......"

I put all my Ferraris in My Garage, and they responded to paint the 'red' one back 'blue' again......

*sanding wheels*

 

roadtripguy has the 412P thread now, for "yellow" ones.......he just dropped over here to see 'whatsup'....this thread is for "red ones"....

 

The Good Things Remain The Same.

Regards

 

New photo posted on another forum, from January 1966, I believe; and copyright Doug Nye:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3396/at0729li3.jpg

Happy New Year!

Paul M

 

Nice photo Paul.
Looked like a typical foggy Italian morning

 

I remember, now, why I put you on 'ignore' before, Allen - when you were 'Speedy308'.
.... It just makes the threads so much shorter - and nothing of any real value is lost.

 

Or..

buy low, sell never. Buy fake, make real?

It's been gone over before, but Jim proved that J6 wasn't an 'honest' car. Help me out- this feeble mind is trying to figure out your intentions here.

 

To Napolis,
hello James
did you go to Cavallino? is the 0846 ready? i will be proud to see you with the "Polo FCF" near the car.

Thanks,

 

Ooops !!! Ermm, I think that is EXTREMELY unlikely, Christian.

See this earlier (debate) thread, entitled '0846 & Cavallino': http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61882 (notably Jim's post #4).

 

Hi

0846's new livery won't be finished until the summer.
The following may help you understand why I don't attend Cavallino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanp
Cavallino and Prancing Horse are "must-haves" for historians. The articles are by the leading historians and some epic battles over certain cars have been fought out in the letters section. Now w/ computer age, a lot of those battles are now fought on telaio and other historian email groups.

Bryan

As you can see from the following The idea that Cavallino is a place where truth is sought is laughable. Some of the contributors may be willing to face the truth but John Barnes the Editor certainly is not. His refusal to print my letter which pointed out pure fact proved by both Ferrari's written records and physical measurement that is easily validatable refuting something he published shows that his editorial policy is Intellectually Bankrupt. In my opinion Cavallino no longer deserves to call itself a "Journal of Ferrari History"

Regards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicia
Dear Members of Ferrari Chat,
Regarding the recent 2007 Cavallino Classic:
1) Regarding the 275 GTB/4, s/n 10527, this car is a regular 275 converted to spyder configuration. The owner never represented it to us as a NART spyder. However, it slipped past our selection committee, and me, for which I take full responsibility. It is a re-bodied car and should not have been on the show field.
2) Regarding the F40 LM, s/n 84838, this car is a regular F40 converted to F40 LM specs after being totally burned. This also slipped past our selection committee, and me, and for which I take full responsibility. It is a re-bodied car and should not have been on the show field. When the judges arrived to judge the car, they discovered the makeover, and the car was withdrawn from judging.
3) Regarding the car currently called “330 P3/4, s/n 0846,” Ferrari says that the original s/n 0846 was destroyed by them after a racing accident. The current owner of the car currently called “330 P3/4, s/n 0846,” has a letter from Ferrari stating this, and this is still Ferrari’s position today. On December 6, 2004, I wrote to the current owner about why his car was declined for the Cavallino Classic, because Ferrari said that the original was destroyed by them. At that time, I encouraged him to take the matter up with Ferrari, and/or try to have his car certified. If the current owner can get a letter from Ferrari stating that his car is the original s/n 0846, it will be welcome.
4) Regarding the Pininfarina P4/5, this car has not been accepted by Ferrari as a Ferrari. The reasons why I do not know. I checked with Ferrari before the Cavallino Classic, and during the Classic, and they said the car was not approved by them. If the current owner can get a letter from Ferrari stating that they approve this car, it will be welcome.
5) Regarding the Palm Beach Supercar Weekend, we said nothing for or against. When people asked us if we were involved in the PBSW, we said no, which is true. When people asked us if we had been involved in the Palm Beach International, we said yes, which is true. We have no axe to grind with the PBSW. In fact, several weeks before the Classic weekend, I had cordial meetings with several of their backers, and encouraged them to pick a new weekend in the future. There are two reasons: One, they will get all the income available from the weekend (gate, sponsors, vendors, etc.), and not have to split it with another event, and Two, and most important, they will not annoy the paying customer, who is definitely upset at having to choose between competing events, or trying to attend two events. Every other major automotive entity (concours, auction, race track, club event, etc.) in southern Florida has picked their own weekend, and not competed, for just these reasons. I know the organizers of the PBSW. They are young, energetic, and have lots of promise. Hopefully, they will see the business sense of this, pick their own weekend, and make it a huge success.
With best regards,
John W. Barnes, Jr., President, Cavallino Events, Inc.

Why you find it necessary to post the exact same thing in multiple sections of FCHAT is beyond me but as you have I will post the same answer I gave you in the last place you posted this.


Dear John

Why you continue to show a reckless disregard for the truth remains beyond me.

As you were informed in writing on June 14th, 2005 in a letter that you refused to print, even though it corrects indisputable factual error in your magazine concerning among other things that the wheelbase of P3's and P4's are not the same but differ by 12mm, you were clearly informed that Ferrari has never stated in writing that the original chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 were destroyed.

Ferrari has very clearly, in writing, twice stated that they were "scrapped" "written off" They have also in writing stated that: "Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off". As Ferrari S.p.A. helped me to rebuild the car that you have referred to as ""the current car that carries the s/n 0846" by manufacturing P4 Uprights specifically for me to use to rebuild this car in 2002 I find Ferrari's latter statement a bit disingenuous but that is a different matter.

As you are also aware because of your refusal to publish my letter correcting factual error in your magazine I consider you unworthy of having my cars at Cavallino and therefore as you know I haven't submitted any of my cars for Cavallino since your refusal to publish my letter. Before then I did submit 0846 and you responded that unless Ferrari "Authenticated" 0846 which we both know that by Ferrari's authentication criteria is impossible as 0846 does not of course have it's original chassis stampings, you would not accept 0846 and as I told you I have no problem at all with that.

P 4/5 has NEVER been submitted to Cavallino as you are quite aware of, as you are also quite aware of the fact that none of my cars ever will appear at any event associated with you so why you would discuss if P 4/5 could appear at Cavallino with "Ferrari" is bizarre. After your track event was over so as not to encroach on your event in anyway I simply drove P 4/5 from the Ferrari of Long Island Transporter to Mar a Lago where I was staying. Why you felt it necessary to threaten me with arrest as Benie and others have told me that you did is also beyond me.

Now as for Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina. Luca di Montezemolo absolutely confirmed to Andrea Pininfarina that Ferrari was officially recognizing this car and allowing Ferrari badges to be placed on the car. Indeed the two of them jointly agreed on it's exact name. Jean Todt confirmed that this car was officially recognized by Ferrari to me at Pebble Beach and among other things commented he felt that the shields on her should be enameled not painted. I would appreciate it if you would name the Person at Ferrari who told you that Ferrari P 4/5 by Ferrari is not officially recognized by Ferrari as I would like to pass this information on to Luca and Andrea.

Sincerely

Jim

For the record a copy of my June 14th, 2005 letter to Cavallino follows:


June 14, 2005


Dear Cavallino:

Bill Wagenblatt's letter to Mauro Forghieri, and Mauro Forghieri's response, reprinted in Cavallino 147 is very interesting but as regards Bill's question # 4, Mauro's answer # 4 is incorrect by 12mm.

Question #4 Bill Wagenblatt:
The dimensions, such as wheelbase, are the same as the 330 P4 and is
2400 mm.

Answer # 4 Mauro Forghieri:
Yes. The database for the P4 was originally the same as the P3.

As the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.0846" clearly states, the P3 wheelbase of 0846 was 2412mm and was changed in December 1967 to 2400mm when 0846 was converted by Ferrari from a P3 to a P 3/4, the "bastard 330 P3/P4" Mauro referred to in his answer #6.

This is a small but very significant difference that is confirmed by physical measurement of my 412 P 0854 and LS's 330 P4 0856. (Links to the 0846 Papers which go into this in detail and contain the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n. 0846" and other reasons why I, and others now believe that the car I own contains substantial portions of the original chassis remains of 0846 are listed at the end of this letter).

I have no quarrel with your “* Publisher note,” except of course, when you refer to 0846 as "s/n 1046” in the latter part of the note.

“* Publisher note: Readers should know that there is presently a great deal of controversy over the current car that carries the s/n 0846. The car is presently under discussion between the owner, the Factory, and a large group of experts. It is not our intention here to enter this controversy. This


letter is simply presented as a clarification of what s/n 1046 (sic) was, and other "P" cars were at the time they were racing."

I do take issue with your use of the word "destroyed" in your second Publisher's note, especially if taken to mean that the chassis remains of 0846 no longer exist.

** “Publisher's note: “At the present time, the Factory considers the original car destroyed”.

In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote:
"We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident."

"Written off" does not mean ceasing to exist.

There is not, nor has there been for years, any question that, under the definitions that Ferrari has chosen for their "authentication" process, 0846 as it exists today could not be "authenticated" by Ferrari. As an aside, under those same criteria the Le Mans winning Ford MK-IV J5 couldn't be either as it, unlike my Ford MK-IV J6, no longer has its original chassis plate.

The only question was, and is, if my beliefs as stated below are correct:

"After Le Mans 1967, Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 was returned to the Ferrari
factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, including remains of the original chassis, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications."

(My recent acquisition of 412 P 0854 and its original coupe tail and doors
will enable me to restore 0846 to it's original spyder configuration and 0854
back to it original coupe configuration using the spyder tail that is now on
0854 which, by the way, is originally from 0858.)

In a letter dated October 5th, 2004, Umberto Masoni of Ferrari Maserati
Classiche described the research and documentation that is behind my beliefs:


"Subject: Ferrari 330 P3/4 Chassis 0846

Dear Mr. Glickenhaus
We wish to thank you for the extensive documentation that we have received
for competence, from Mr. Montezemolo's office.”

This "extensive documentation" “the 0846 Papers" is posted on a website
copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A. CLick Owners/ Classiche/Forum.

For those without access to that website click:

http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf_


It's interesting that over many years while some continue to scream fake, no one including Ferrari S.p.A. has refuted the "extensive documentation" behind my belief as to what happened to the chassis remains of 0846 and how they wound up where I believe they did.

Sincerely,



James Glickenhaus

 

and so what? must to be blind or fool to tell the car doesn t exist.

be purist i m agree, but how many Ferrari vintage are unmodified, not restored, not rebuilt today? a very small part of them.

How many Historians of Ferrari can reply to this question:
Enzo Ferrari should accepted the 0486 today?

i didn t talk with dead people, can you?
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‘0846’s new livery’, Jim ? I thought that was supposed to be very ‘hush-hush’.

 

Ah Yes, that other ‘0846 & Cavallino’ thread in the Florida section: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137888

I knew there was (a lot) more written on the subject. Just couldn’t remember where. Interesting reading.

 

Pourquoi est-ce que j'aurais le besoin de parler avec les personnes mortes ?

David Piper is very much alive and still in full possession of all his faculties - if not the car he built.
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after reading the many threads and alot of the ''documentation'' provided by jim, there is little more that i can say that has'nt already been said by many others of the f-chat community. though i would like to give my opinion, though it counts for nothing!

i do see both sides of the argument, but i have to say that one side does seem a little more realistic to me. i think that its highly unlikely that jim's car is 0846, but i dont rule it out! i struggle with the concept that david piper was not aware of what the car was whilst it was in his possesion. he raced the car, serviced it etc... he also had it built as a replica. yes there is a possiblity that somehow, it was salvaged form a scrap yard, and that yes a car of not great worth at the time, was salvaged! i believe this to be highly unlikely!!!
on the idea that jim's car does have the chassis from the original 0846 then does that mean that he can call it 0846, is there really enough of the original car to claim that it could be 0846? in my opinion no. i personnally think that the car should not be called 0846, i have no suggestions for the name, maybe ''jim's car'' but i dont think that it should be recognised in the form of 0846 until it has been fully recognised by ferrari! this is highly unlikely!
(if i buy a toyota mr2 and put a 355 body kit on it, does this make it a ferrari if i used some original ferrari parts?)
what has marcel massini said about the car? its my understanding that he is an authority on these matters, and i presume that he would be neutral and bias in no way!

 

The question of what this car as it exists today was answered years ago. It's legal identity, accepted by US and Italian Motor Vehicle Authorities and US and Italian Custom Authorities was settled and no one including Ferrari, who was given timely notice of this establishment of legal idenity and a fineate period to challenge that Legal Identity and didn't within the allowed period, may ever, under US law challenge that legal identity period. The car as it exists today legally is 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 chassis/vin# 0846.

Ferrari does not dispute that the chassis remains of 0846 wound up in 0846 as it exists today. They correctly maintain that they scrapped 0846, never sold the chassis remains of 0846 to anyone and that the car as it exists was reconstructed by me from various
"Glorious Pieces". Ferrari's written statements on my car are clear and speak for themselves. The last letter on the subject I received from Ferrari was over one year ago and stated that they saw no reason to publicly debate this car and hoped I have a nice holiday season.

Nathan proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that David did not make this chassis to P4 plans as he stated several times, over many years, in sworn statements, to governmental authorities/Auction Houses/ and me, and that it is a P3 Chassis exactly as I bought it from David. David explicitly stated many times, verbally to Nathan and in writing as above, that this chassis was built to P4 blueprints (given to him by Enzo Ferrari). This is not true period.

The good news is 0846 is still parked in my garage and on The Ferrari owner site, whose content is solely controlled by Ferrari S.p.A. where I as listed as her owner.

I'll let Marcel's written words speak for themselves:


4th Annual The Quail - A Motorsports Gathering
Quail Lodge, Carmel Valley/CA, Friday, 17th August 2007
FERRARI TYPE
CHASSIS# COLOR
PLATES
ENTRANT
166 MM Barchetta Touring
0022 M
Red
KYU 424
David N. Seielstad, HI
212 Europa Cabriolet Vignale
0255 EU
Darkblue RM 180086 John R. Queen, CA
375 America Coupé Pinin Farina modified (DNS)
0315 AL
Black
None
Patrick Craig, CA
330 P3/4 Spider
0846
Red
P3/4
James Glickenhaus, NY
250 GT Coupé Pinin Farina
1381 GT
Silvergrey NJV 12
John Vardanian, CA
250 GT LWB California Spider Scaglietti
1501 GT
Black
XYX 237
Symbolic Motor Car Co.
250 GT SWB Berlinetta Scaglietti
1953 GT
Yellow
None
Symbolic Motor Car Co.
250 GT SWB Berlinetta Scaglietti
2033 GT
Ivory
MI 500829
Tex Otto, CA
250 GT/L Berlinetta Scaglietti modified
4383 GT
Red
118750 AV
Mark Robinson, HI
500 Superfast
6303 SF
Blue
5 RSV 081
Weston Hook, CA
275 GTB Berlinetta Scaglietti shortnose
07147
Silver
Art McAuley, CA
275 GTB/6 C Berlinetta Scaglietti longnose
08341
Red
PRANCE
Morris Halperin, CA
365 GTC Coupé Pininfarina
Red
Robert D. Lebenson, NV
275 GTB/4 Berlinetta Scaglietti
10271
Yellow
231 CAE
Malcolm Welford, CA
330 GTC Coupé Pininfarina
10539
Red
Chuck McCreight, CA
F40 (Assembly #04314)
87324
Red
Mike Allessandro, CA
Enzo (Assembly #51215)
134278
Orange
None
Gerald Barnes, CA
DNS = did not show
© Marcel Massini 11/10/07

 

Funny. My words wasn t for D Piper but only adressed for people who doesn t accept the existance of this car.

 

Malheureusement, perdu dans la traduction.