The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Thank you Rob, and intelligent answer at long last. This is 100% my view and I believe Jim's view. Whether there are enough parts to consider the collection of parts 0846, I do not know. But this is what I have been trying to say all along, ie. that Jim's car has many, many genuine P3/4 parts on it and Jim believes those parts came from 0846.

Any old racing car that was actually raced will not have the same parts that it was built with, even 0844. If it does it was not raced or used. Race car parts are expendable ... the car is just a tool to win races.

This poll is stupid and can no way be used as any form of evidence, or whatever.

Real pity that we had to resort to this. Even Max Wakefield understands race cars and history enough to realise that a poll is a waste of time. I guess I was wrong regarding P4Replica being around motorsport and understanding racing cars ...

Pete
ps: I would bet a huge amount of money that all the surviving P3's and P4's have parts from each of the cars muddled up, ie. 0844 has parts from 0856, etc. and visa versa as the mechanics scrambled around to make the car race worthy. Infact they will have new parts too, possibly made recently to keep them working ...

 

Its not a secret.

 

It really does come down to what your definition of is, is. I believe, J5 the car driven by Dan Gurney and AJ Foyt to 1oa at LeMans in 1967 is sitting in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan. There's a problem with that belief. If you take the FIA's definition of what constitutes an original car you could rightfully argue/believe that J5 resides in a bank vault as that's where J5's original chassis plate is and it's ownership is not, I believe, with
The Henry Ford Museum.
The original chassis plate of 0846, I believe, was destroyed in the fire that also destroyed much of the right rear section of the chassis at LeMans in 1967. If you go with the definition that original means original chassis plate then you believe that 0846 no longer exists. Period. If you, as I do, after much investigation including forensic investigation, believe that the chassis remains of 0846 against huge odds and totally unbeknown to David Piper and I at the time I bought my car from him were incorporated into the chassis that I now own then you take a different view.
IMHO the proper people to begin assessing the evidence I've gathered and inspect my car are Ferrari S.P.A. and in a continuing process this is occurring and will continue. Those who wish to see for themselves will have a chance to this August at the FCA National Concourse at Quail. Soon much of this will be published in an appropriate magazine by an independent writer and those that wish to will have a chance to respond/disagree. Hey I may disagree with what he comes up with. All I'm doing is giving him access to my research and forensic findings and he'll reach his own conclusions.
In the end everyone will believe what they want to believe but on those fine Sunday mornings it will be me who's driving my car whatever it may or may not be.
On this subject, for the time being, I remain over and out.

 

The fact remains Jim that you are negligent. Grossly so in fact. Here we all are, grovelling little minions with fantasies of famous Ferraris dancing in our heads. There you are with at the very least something that looks pretty dang cool from here in your garage coming together.......

And we still have not had any fresh photos in over a freaking week! And you call yourself a sharing car enthusiasts! Your lucky I dont live close by. Id have to sneak over and roll your yard. With red paper of coarse.


Terry

 

P5 was built on a new chassis. (Components of) 0846 chassis are in 'Napolis's garage.

 

I seriously doubt that Paul Skett is jealous over Jim G owning a P4 that might be 0846. I don't understand all the personal attacks on Paul? This entire mess should not be personal. Its a matter of history.

I do understand Pauls concern. Paul doesn't know Jim, I don't know Jim. And it doesn't matter wether you know Jim or not. Its not a popularity contest that will make 0846 original or not. I do understand human nature. This is not the first time a cars heritage has been in question by a so called person of intergrity.

There are several scenarios:

1) Jim my honestly beleive he has 0846 and have evidence to support.

2) He may very well have 0846 and it will be confirmed conclusively.

3) He could be wrong, accept it and he will have a nice replica

4) And this one is the worst case, but anything is possible, he could be trying to pull a fast one. Lets face it. What would it take to fool everyone? A knowledge of the true article. Lots of money. And the swaying of public opinion. Unfortunately enough money can buy quite a bit of authenticity. (I am certainly not saying this is the case, so everyone calm down)

I certainly am making no judgement of anyones intergrity, just spelling out the possibilities as I see them. I think I'm being objective, fair and balanced and all that crap.

After reading through what I could I do not see Paul Skett as being derogatory or holding a grudge or doing anything but trying to figure out what the deal with the car is? I'm sure it might be annoying to JG but thats the price for claiming a long lost car. Paul might be persistant but thats all I see.

I think it has been clearly established in the courts that the chassis is the car. One car, one chassis and thats the way it should be. Otherwise everyone would be cutting up there Ferraris into 10 pieces and making 10 cars with fabricated parts. Loads of profit to be made. Everyone running around with cars that are 10% original. Just think about what you guys are saying.

Its not reasonable to expect the engines to remain unchanged in race cars. Same with bodies. Just looking at the P4 in question its clear that the body is not at all original. 0846 started as a P3. Whats on JG's resto is mostly P4 bodywork. The nose has 2 slits, not one in the center. So thats not original. Its a coupe. So that section is not original. The rockers are P4, which are different than P3 rockers, so thats not original. And they are P4 "3 step style" with a scoop in place of a duct. No P3 or P4 existed that way ever. The rear end panel looks like what ran at Daytina in 67, thats the closest to original "race" bodywork on the body. I have no idea whats up with the engine. I would be shocked if its from 0846, but that would be very cool. I hope there is a way to confim that. Do these blocks have some form of VIN stamped on them like on muscle cars blocks?

But all of that doesn't matter and is acceptable if the chassis is proven as 0846, because the chassis is the car. By 1967 most of the original bodywork was already modified. In fact I think only the doors, windshield, interior and taillights remained.

Also it doesn't matter that JG says he will never sell the car. Its irrelevant. If thats the case then he should have never even mentioned he owned 0846. Because now that is all the matters. Backing up the words. And it sound like JG is going about it properly.

I am just very amused how many people accept a persons word as gospel. The only person any of this will really matter to is the next person who takes ownership of this car. Whether thats in 5 years or 100 years from now. It will also matter if Piper happens to sell someone else a chassis or part and THEY say they own 0846 and have THEIR own proof.

That is the reason why the chassis plate is so important.

I for one think it would be great if JG does owns 0846. If he uncovered something like this it would be spectacular. But without clear cut evidence I find it very hard to beleive opinions. And thats all you can end up with.

What makes this issue so important is the historical significance. Not to mention it will change the value of the finished car. Its better for the car to be 0846 than not to be.

Either way I can't believe I spent 20 minutes on this response just to express my worthless opinion.............

Ed

 

An internet chat site is hardly the place to confirm the history of a valuable vehicle. (We are anonymous and have no official recognised ability in this area). Thus my point is, why cannot Paul just sit back like the rest of us and wait for Jim to provide the evidence, either in book form or here if he so decides.

We know that Jim has a lot more evidence and he is choosing no longer to discuss it on this site due to the 'understandably' millions of questions and cross checking that will happen.

In the end it will always be a storied car that has some genuine P3/4 parts on it, just like Max Wakefields other car (not the Noble replica, but the ex-Piper car) assuming Max has all the other parts and not just the chassis and body. When Ferrari makes racing cars it also makes spares, Piper simply made 2 extra cars out of the parts he had lying around. Some of those parts may have raced, some may have not ...

OR we can continue to waste our time and discuss this over and over again, and push Jim in to not showing us any pictures of the car at all. Then we all loose. Paul has managed to do that single handedly and I for one would like to kick him up the arse for that . I could not care less whether Jim had a fantastic machinist working 24 hours a day machining all this stuff from blue prints ... but I used to be able to study it, now I can't.

In the end it is far easier to be sceptical, especially on the internet ... and we have enough of that weeding out the trolls. Jim is hardly a troll, he has chosen to enlighten us all with this book ... I say lets all STFU until the book comes out. After the book (or magazine article appears) then it is open for discussion.

Pete

 

I think the good question is :

"Jim, do you have pictures of ALL the claimed 0846 original parts BEFORE you began your project ??"

I'm sorry but, all I see on the old threads pictures is a brand new chassis + new parts built around it.

 

Would Ferrari SPA have cast suspension parts for it if they didn't think there was some chance it was the real deal?

NNO- just get a grip. P4 is allowed to ask questions and state his opinions if he wants to without getting *****ed at.

 

Frankly, I don't care whether 'Napolis is a businessman, filmmaker or car collector. What I do care about is his character, as he has time and again displayed strengths I shall cite which one should hold in highest esteem. When an attempt is made to assassinate the following character attributes, it is time to clear the air.

'Napolis possesses a few things P4Replica does not.
Class. Honor. Integrity.

All the money in the world will buy neither and certainly, it doesn't matter what worldly possessions one has. You can't take it with you. A "bum" is equally capable of possessing such valuable character traits.

The party, if you will, was going very well before P4Replica crashed it with whispered discontent and rather pointed commentary discrediting 'Napolis's character and wheeled joy, here, there and everywhere.
P4Replica is telling 'Napolis to put up or shut up? Apparently, he has issues which stem from early childhood.
P4Replica, do yourself and everybody else in F-Chat a favor... shut up.
'Napolis - just keep P4Replica on ignore, as well you should. Post early and often about whatever tickles your fancy and we'll remain the better for it. If and when you present academia is entirely of your own choosing.

 

Yes, I believe they would. Ferrari will make anything you want if you have enough money. Talk to the Sultan.

Just because Ferrari Spa casts some suspension doesn't give any credibility to the car being 0846.

 

Wax,

Why do you have a picture of Herman Munster as your Avitar?

Art S.

 

That's not Herman Munster, that's the next Michael Dukakis.

 

Paul, i totally agree... If you knew how many emails filled with countless questions i sent to Mr. G. on my own, you'd think i was on P4Replica's side... Everyone is allowed to ask questions when someone puts something out for public scrutiny like J.G. has; the big difference is that i was polite and respectful and honestly and enthusiastically curious, not negative, biased and slanderous... i feel that he - and everyone else - has the right to ask just about any question they can think of... James put himself in that position when he began posting about his BELIEF that he had the remains of 0846... i can guarantee you that he doesn't mind answering questions, either, but when people are spiteful and jealous, it's a whole different story...


Anyway, i'm just a nobody with an opinion; the proof is in the opinion... When it's all said and done, folks will wonder how i knew, all this time, that his is the real deal...

 

Mr Replica, I'm not going to play your little game for two reasons:

1. It really doesn't matter what I, or you, or anybody else thinks of Mr. G's P4 project, does it? Jim has stated over and over again that he is doing this because (a) he wants to, and (b) he can. He is not doing this to make a buck (In fact, I'm sure that this project is costing quite a few dollars.). He is not doing this to prove some kind of point. He is not doing this to have another "ego toy" that he can name drop with other ego toy owners. From what I can tell, Jim is doing this because he loves these old cars, period, end of statement.

2. You, on the other hand, come off as a petty, vain, little man who is jealous the Jim will have something that you never will; namely, something that approaches a geninue P4. While you carp that Jim's car is a clone or a recreation or who knows what, at the end of the day, all you have is a replica.

If this sounds harsh, so be it. You have dug your own hole. If you truly love these old race cars, you should be cheering Jim on, instead of sniping and griping. By sharing his project with the rest of the world via the Internet, I'm guessing that Jim has created more interest in P4s and old Ferrari race cars than just about anybody except the old man himself. Like the Marines say, you need to either, "Lead, Follow, or get the F*** out of the way."

Take care, DrTax

 

Ferrari Spa believes so James P4 is the Real deal.
I have seen James P4 and i believe him .

This poll is stupid. Its unrespectfull to all the passion and work James has put on this amazing project.

 

Andrew
Ferrari S.P.A. is still in the continuing process of evaluating my car. To date they have taken various actions regarding it that speak for themselves but the official authentication process is still on going and by no means complete.
Best

 

DNA Testing..........molecular comparisons, we got science here!!!!!

On the yellow 250LM, it was just a humble little piece of metal, hand stamped.
I saw it, took a picture, shook the gentlemen's hand........ and walked away happy!

As I got back into the 308GTB, they called out to me...

"Will we see ya'll at Pebble Beach???".....I looked at Valeria, smiled, and called back: "Maybe so!!!"


"Don't take life so seriously, son. It's not a permanent condition, no how"
Albert the Alligator with cigar, to Pogo. Walt Kelly

 

That printed page you showed me from owners.ferrari.com shows its going the good way no ?

 

I would agree with that.

 

Wax. And just who the hell do you think you are to make that statement about me ?

I am not a "bum". Similarly, I have not specifically insulted Jim (or anyone else in this forum) by name calling. From memory, I did in one previous thread refer to "the fawning posse of sycophants", that drool at Jim's every posting. I guess you obviously fall into that category. But I can start dishing out the insullts and profanities if you like ....

By 'the party', I assume you mean 'the softening up' (prior to Monterey) or are you referring to 'the ego trip' party ?

LIAR !
Go back and read the last paragraph of post #1. What I actually wrote was:
"If there is an overwhelming vote in favour .... I may just ‘put up and shut up’."
So DO NOT misquote me Wax. I have NEVER misquoted Jim (or anybody else on this forum). In fact, it's probably the numbers of times that I have quoted him 'verbatim', that show up some of the discrepancies in his postings !

Wax. You are now on my 'ignore list'. And, in the meantime, I suggest you take your finger out of ....

 

Seems like the most logical way to go about it....

P4replica - Why so much interest on your part? Why not just let SPA make the decision? Why so much concern on your part?

Just curious, no flame intended.

Looking at the poll results, most believe the car is the real deal - But we still aren't any better off than we were before.... So what is the point? Would you have felt better if the results were different or were you just curious?

 

Answering your post out of order, here, Jerry - I've got a few other 'fires' to put out yet !

I started off just being a sceptic. I knew my P3/P4/412P history pretty well before I started posting anyway, but I have done a LOT more research in recent months - the (further) results of which you will soon (hopefully) start to see. #0846 has been 'lost and gone' for some 37 years. That's part of the 'P' series history.
#0846 was probably, historically, the 3rd most important P3/4 (or P4) of them all, behind #0844 and #0856.
It didn't have much success as a P3 in '66, but it '67 it became the famous #23 Daytona winner.

It is of course, THE ONLY missing chassis number from the '66/'67 'P' series. So how convenient that Jim should purchase this 'P4 recreation' from David Piper (without provenance), and 'discover' that it is actually #0846 !
David Piper has owned many of these cars - he kept and raced #0854 for the longest. After it was no longer competitive, he sold it. But then missed it so much that he decided to build himself another, from parts - #0900 -the car he still owns and races today. David Piper knows his P2/P3/P4's INSIDE OUT. Do you think he would be foolish enough to build the chassis (and for that matter the engine and gearbox - of more anon) of #0846 into a replica, and then sell it to Jim for a tenth of it's potential value ? David may be getting on a bit, but he's far from senile yet ! If he could have re-built #0846 from parts in 1974 (when he built #0900) he would have done it.
And knowing David, he would have sold it for $10 million, and then turned around and built another one.]

So the answer is, in short, that I do not wish to see someone 'changing the course of history' to suit their own ends. Read into that what you will. As everyone else seemed to be so reluctant to post on P4 issues (other than myself and Pete - PSk) I posted this poll to find out the 'general opinion' of the FerrariChat readership. Also to see what sort of reactions I would get - knowing a good many of them would be purely 'emotional'. I didn't quite count on THIS level of vitriol, though ! However, there are one or two good postings coming out of it. It also appears that I am not totally alone in my opinion - 'A voice in the wilderness', so to speak. There are now 5 'No' votes against the 'Yes' and 'Don't knows'. I have also recieved supportive emails from two noted Ferrari historians ....

 

Thanks P4 - I understand - You are just really interested! No worries.

Jim seems like a great guy - I hope he does indeed have a rare gem.