The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

(Numerous paragraphs omitted)

Ed.
Thank you for that support. You haven't wasted 20 minutes. Well - you may have wasted it on those who see fit to support Jim by calling me names. I just wish they would take the time to read all of what you had written, properly, instead of composing and firing off vitriolic posts against myself. Very well worded indeed, Sir !

 

But I see no answer to this post. Strange ?

 

As you can see, I'm gradually working my way back through the day's posts, and replying only absolutely where neccessary. (I'm not bothering to reply to any more of Wax's, needless to say).

But sorry, Pete, I'm gonna have to pull you up on this one .....

Please go back to Post #1 (Do not pass go; do not collect $200). Read it again.

“Without anyone wanting to hear, why or why not. What are the numbers of people who are 100% sure the JG P4 is the real thing versus the 100% not the real thing.
Just curious to tot up the numbers. Or has this already been done lately?”

THIS IS A QUOTE FROM MAX WAKEFIELD (from a previous thread). Not me ! He suggested it ! I just initiated it !

 

Hello all,
I'm just a humble Automotive artist who owns nothing and who is just and only an Enthusiastic car fanatic who walks arround in the hope that this could be the great discovery of one of the true gems in automotive history!!!
I have been reading all these threads and posts.....and I just do not understand all this fore and against rubbish (No offence meant against anyone)! None of us in here exept for Jim knows all of the evidence and history that folllowed the car that Jim obtained, and NONE of us will ever be asked our opinion in the sorting out of the car's history. Gentlemen we cannot do anything about this. So I for one will just wait impatiently with my fingers crossed in the hope that it is #0846 that has now turned up in Jim's hands. I hope I speak for the majority in here by saying that I surely hopes for Jim and for all the true enthusiasts in here and arround the world that he will end up with having solved one of the great mysteries in the P-history with the discovery of #0846......I would say that if someone hopes for anything less.....he or she would not be a real enthusiast!
Just my humble opinion Gentlemen!

@Napolis/Jim
I just wish to say to you that I and a whole wide world of true enthusiasts hopes our best that the evidence kept by you will end up proving that you rightfully have found the missed #0846. Further I wish to show you my deepest respect for the enormous amount of work, money and not least passion that you've already put in the project of rebuilding this believed piece of true automotive history! People like you have enriched the automotive world by preserving these true pieces of history, for all of us to enjoy!

Best regards and wishes

Carsten Christiansen
Automotive artist
http://www.bugattiart.com

 

Interesting debate. I can think of Bugattis (35, 51, 59), Alfas (6c-1750s), prewar Mercedes SSKs and SSKLs, Ferrari 250 14 louver coupes, SWBs, GTOs, Jaguar C-types and D-types, Cooper and Lotus F1 cars, Maserati 250s, 300s, and about a dozen other examples of cars with dubious provenance due to more than one car claiming the same serial number or a missing serial number.

Old race cars are sort of like grandfather's axe. "This is my grandfather's axe, my dad replaced the handle, and I replaced the head."

 

In response to Rob's previous post ....

Who was it that accused 'P4Replica' of 'having an axe to grind' ?

(that's an English saying for someone with a point to prove) .... (or so I thought it was) ....

 

Just looked this saying up on the Web. Found something 'slightly' different. Ooops !

Meaning: Have (having) an ulterior motive.

Origin: Benjamin Franklin wrote that a visitor asked him how his grindstone worked. Franklin sharpened the visitor's axe for him when demonstrating, which is apparently what was intended all along.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot (or dropping an 'axe-head' on it for that matter) ! Doh !
That's the last time you'll catch me doing a one-liner 'throwaway' without checking my facts first !
Absolutely NO MORE attempts at humo(u)r in this thread (by me) either ! I promise !

 

Spoken like a true gentleman. Amen.

This is as close as I'll ever get to a P4 of any kind, unless you include the Norwood car that I sat in. I truly hope it is 0846. If it's not, it has cost me nothing to enjoy watching it's construction.

 

What has Jim done to you, that you call him a liar? Because that is basically what you are doing with this thread imho.

Do you gain anything if the P4 in question is really #0846 or not? I have seen Jim's P4 in real life and I have no doubt that it is actually the real P4 with chassis number #0846.

I don't have solid proof but I don't need that. A lot of known historic facts match the damage marks that are still on the chassis which was convincing enough for me. But even so, I don't need proof and I don't see why it should be provided. The P4 in question is not for sale so the authentity is not a real issue here.

The P4 is restored to give driving pleasure to Jim and not to gain money. It is a delight to hear to Jim's stories about the Duesenburg, the GT40 and the P4 and I can see that he is really enjoying his bella macchine. He is sharing it with the rest of us and I thank him for that.

Hans

 

The no votes mean absolutely nothing, same as the yes votes... No one here is James except James and no one has the documentation he has... None of the votes cast mean ANYthing... Neither do the supportive emails you've received from "noted Ferrari historians" unless James got together with them and showed them EVERYTHING he's got and they decided he's got a fake... This is why there's so much "vitriol" in this thread; 'cause you're asking folks to vote on something when no one's vote means anything... To come out of the blue and start a thread like this is a strong indication that you're intentionally trying to be inflammatory and that's not cool.

 

I came to make another posting to the other current ongoing P4 discussion thread 'P4 Wheeler Dealer', see:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17616&page=3&pp=20

except it isn't 'ongoing' any more. This thread has been closed, unfortunately. I assume by Rob (the system administrator), or one of the moderators. No notification to me (the original starter of the thread).
Nothing. At whose request, or instigation it was closed, I can only guess at.

I had been planning to reply to Pete's (PSk) and Ed's (Model Builder) posts #46 and 47. I had also been thinking about starting a new thread, anyway. So here we go. I will keep it purely factual. No digs (O.K. except maybe one at Pete, 'cos he deserves it). No emotion (not from me anyway).

Gentlemen. Enjoy the read - while it lasts !

 

I'll re-post this one first, simply because it's quicker to reply to:

Ed wrote:

"Pete,
You need to do a little more investigating. Symbolic and Barchetta.cc are not the places to do it. They show restored cars with lots of artistic freedom. Some good original reference material would be a good start. There are many good books out there. I have most of them.

0844 started life as a P3.

0856 started life as a P4

The difference between the 2 cars is more than you would think. Yes the exhausts are different on both cars as were the engines themselves. The cars even had different wheelbases. The P3 is actually about 1 inch longer in the wheelbase. When the P3's were coverted to P4 and 412P bodywork in '67 they also adjusted the wheelbase accordingly. Not sure about the trans between 66 and 67.

As far as these restored cars? Who knows what they did?

Ed"

The point that I was going to reply to was " Not sure about the trans between 66 and 67."

That's an easy one Ed .....

In 1966, the P3's used a ZF transmission, which I believe was the type 5 DS. I think that's the same one used in GT40's and Panteras.

In 1967, the P4's were built with Ferrari's own gearbox, the type 603R. Later in the season, the P3/4's (P3's upgraded to P4 spec.) and the customer cars (the 412P's) also recieved this gearbox as an upgrade.

A point to remember here, is that in '66 the P3's had INBOARD disk brakes, next to the gearbox,
whereas in '67, the P4's (and the 412P's) had the brakes moved back OUTBOARD on to the hub carriers.

 

Pete wrote:

"Okay I did a little investigation. If that picture that writerguy posted is 0856 (?) which according to www.barchetta.cc is a 330 P4 (or 412P), then comparing the gearboxes of that car with Jim's car there are differences. Now we do not know the history of the gearboxes in each car, but I must say the engine looks very, very similar to me, ie. the same except Jim has painted the cam covers red.

This is Jim's gearbox, refer first attached photo.

Interestingly though 0856's (?) gearbox does not look like 0844's either, and neither does Jim's. This is 0844's gearbox, refer second attached photo (from http://www.symbolicmotors.com/frame.../0844/0844.html). Note also that 0856 (?) exhaust routing is very different to 0844 (which is very similar to Jim's car) ... so what is going on with 0856's (?) exhaust. Did someone make a new set of extractors and did not copy Ferrari?

Now 0844 is considered the least bastardised car, so does that mean that the car that P4Replica is refering to as 0856 is also a REPLICA?, I mean the gearbox does not look like 0844 and the exhaust. Oh my God if you change the exhaust on a genuine Ferrari does it then become a replica

Ofcourse not, it just again demonstrates that these cars are race cars and things get changed and fncked about with in the quest to keep the cars racing and racing hard. Ferrari obviously did not just design one gearbox/transaxle ...

Anyway again I don't know what Jim's car is, but it sure looks like a genuine P3/4 of some description to me. Look at the steering rack, the pedal assemblies ... what did Piper use when he made his copies?

Pete"

He also posted slightly lower resolution versions of these two photos:

 

Dear Abby,
I just bought a nice used 1966 Furdmobile at a used car lot. I recently discovered that the original frame had been in a wreck and part of it had been replaced. The car is also missing the serial number plate. The original engine has been replaced. The original body has also been replaced. Some of my car friends are accusing me of being a disrespectful "doubting Thomas" because I dare to question some facts that don't seem to add up when compared to any other car that I have owned. Am I being a jerk by questioning the history of this car, or am I just exercising healthy skepticism by not necessarily believing what I am being told.
Sincerely,
Gift Horse in the Mouth

 

Do you really have to guess...? That thread was moving along nicely until YOU (yes, YOU, Mr. Innocence), made the following statement:
"In that respect, it makes him no worse than someone 'restoring' an ex-David Piper P4 'fake' and calling it #0846 !"
Now, why would you go and instigate like that...? That thread wasn't about Mr. G. and had nothing to with Mr. G. - you even said so yourself - but then you had to go make that comment... Why...? and you wonder why it was closed...? 'cause you're an instigator and a sh_t-stirrer... One day, you'll throw sh_t at the fan and it'll be blowing in YOUR direction...

 

Sorry to pull you up on this one, Mate - but you really screwed it up !

Nope - it is #0856 that is generally considered the most original unmolested P4. Apart from David Clarke's 'cosmetic freshen-up' in the mid '70's, it survises almost as it finished it's last race in July '67, the Brands Hatch BOAC 500 - where it placed 5th (#7, driven by Scarfiotti / Sutcliffe).

When the P4 was 'loaned' to Dr. David Wilkins by Ferrari (who owned it briefly before David Clarke) one of the conditions was that it should never be modified of ever raced again - for reasons of posterity. thankfully, apart from the odd demonstration drive - that is how it remains - pristine original condition.

In comparison, #0844 has had a much harder life, and is far less original !

 

Excuse that slight interruption, Pete ....

 

Dear Gift Horse in the Mouth,
i recall you writing in to my column several times in the past; always about some grudge you had against "fat cats" as you called them; anyway, back to your question: You're not being a jerk if you've answered EVERY SINGLE TEDIOUS question that's come your way about what you've found and put up with all sorts of accusations and all sorts of other inane nonsense. Excercising healthy skepticism is, as you said, healthy, however, beating a dead horse is just plain senseless. How many times can the same question be asked...? How many times can the same answer be given...? How many pictures must be shown, etc. i think the best thing for you to do is continue to be healthily skeptic but try to keep your deep-rooted hatred for "fat cats" to a minimum and maybe seek some counseling.

Sincerely,

Abby




2004; the year of the Phoenix 4.

 

LOL...! You can ask questions 'til your blue in the face but you can conveniently avoid and ignore the concrete point i've just made... Hmmmmm... i'll be on you like cheesy decals on fake P4 replicas until you stop your nonsense.

 

Excuse me, but that comment was made a few days ago in post #23 ! The thread WAS moving along very nicely AFTER that. In fact, over the last couple of days, it had got up to post #48 .....

That was until somebody had it shut down, for (I suspect) OTHER reasons !

 

i'd like to see you a start a healthy, active P4 thread that does not, at any point, mention Jim, Jim's car or anything else about 0846 or Piper or whatever... It's pretty clear that you're here to start trouble and nothing more... Granted, you're knowledgeable and that's useful here- hell, i can certainly use to learn something, but your attitude always comes off as negative or somehow ulterior and it's pretty disenheartening, especially to the younger, more innocent enthusiasts...

 

That might have something to do with the different angle (slightly overhead shot) of the 'Symbolic' #0844 gearbox photo. Here's a better one.

 

Here are some original photos of a 330P4 Type 603R gearbox.

The first one is from a factory 'spares catalogue'

The second one (sorry it's a little grainy) is of #0856 at it's debut (as #24) at Daytona in '67 (the second place car to #0846).

The last B&W one is one of the official factory press photos of #0856 from December '66.

 

This time - two nice sharp ones of the gearbox of the Scuderia Filipinetti 412P #0848.

This car was originally going to be built in '66 as the third factory P3. Due to strikes it was never completed, so it was turned into a customer car (412P) in early '67, and subsequently recieved the Type 603R gearbox, after pressure was placed on the factory by the various 'customer teams'. Note: some cars appear to have had their transmissions painted gold (by the factory), whereas others are in bare alloy finish.