The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Exactly Max suggested it, but he realised that the poll would actually prove nothing (as this poll is proving) and thus did not do it.

On the OLD FerrariChat site are the photos of the chassis being restored. It is not a new chassis. Jim has posted many many photos of this rebuild ... There is even a photo somewhere of the car at the Goodwood historic meeting which is where he bought it from Piper (I believe).

Pete
ps: I have not voted!, and have always had the opinion that Jim's car has many genuine P4 components on it.

P4Replica's has none

BTW: One thing I have never understood is why Max Wakefield puts all his efforts into his Noble P4 Replica when he owns a Piper recreation. I would sell the replica to invest the funds into a car so much closer to the real deal it is not funny. The Noble, etc. replica chassis' are as close to a P4 as my GTV chassis is to one ... but Pipers were built from the original blue prints! Just curious ...

 

As this thread has already suffered what I see are deliberate interruptions by Carbon - I will post the photo of Jim's gearbox again. This time using the one that Pete had originally posted in the other thread.

 

Here is a photo of a 1967 Ferrari F1 gearbox .....

Note the similarities in the casting ribs to Jim's gearbox (F1 gearboxes weren't built as tough as P4 gearboxes - they were only expected to run for a couple of hours, as opposed to 24 hours).

Note also on Jim's gearbox the two blanked thread tappings over the halfshaft / stub axle output. On the F1 gearbox, this is where the calipers would have mounted (inboard).

Remember my first reply to Ed ? I stated P3's used INBOARD brakes, but ZF gearboxes. P4's had OUTBOARD brakes and there is no provision on the Type 603R gearbox for inboard mounting.

Examine the photos and draw your own conclusions ....

 

Deliberate interruptions...? Are you serious...? Are we in 6th grade...? i was commenting on a statement you made... i'm sorry, i didn't know i had to permitted to post... You're a real class act, you know that...?

 

P4Replica,

I am in no way an authority on P3 or P4 Ferraris. I have never even seen one or even a replica of one. All I was doing was looking at the gearboxes. Yep I made a mistake regarding 0844 ... so what.

Now if you would like to use this as a basis of putting me down and then somehow making the fact that I do not know everything as proving Jim's car is not the real deal ... then you are wasting your time.

All I was doing as an interested enthuisast was comparing gearboxes.

You see this is the difference between everybody else and you. We all have questions and are curious about whether Jim's car is the real deal or not, but with all of us this has nothing to do with proving Jim as a liar or disrespecting him as a person. You continual make this into a personal attack.

I will say again to make my view very clear for you: I think Jim's car has many genuine P3/4 parts on it. Note I am not saying it is 0846, because I do not have the skill to say if it is or not (plus I live in Australia so cannot even see it in person), that is up for other people to decide.

As Rob and I have said over and over again, race cars are used like the old axe and what is the most important thing is called 'Continuous history'. If a car left the factory and then had an accident and received a new body, and then kept racing and then had another accident and then had to receive a new chassis and the body repaired and then kept racing and then the engine **** itself and this was replaced from another car and so on ... it is still the same car that left the factory!

Now the components have been changed but that collection of components have a continual path in history and the final collection of parts represents the same car.

Do you honestly think that all the Brabham and Lotus single seaters of the 60's, etc. still have the same engine and chassis that they started life with? ... I bet not many do, as the chassis would be 100% unsafe because they get weak over time. Thus if you want to keep racing the car you have to replace or repair the chassis.

for example: Look at the restoration Jim has just completed for the Lola. He has replaced many panels in the monocoque as it was starting to flex. This is called maintenance. Would you argue that it is no longer the same car ... ofcourse not!. And the best thing is that we have documented clearly exactly what happened to his Lola and thus the continuous history is clear. Unfortunately with many cars they disappear and then reapear fully restored and those missing years were not documented clearly ... hence confusion!

Now thank you for educating me on my mistakes and informing me of the gearbox history. I have happily learnt something

Pete

 

Gentlemen ....
It's late (for me) 1:00am, so I'm going to have to finish up soon.

That photo in the previous post wasn't EXACTLY the one I wanted. I'm looking for a similar angle shot the engine and gearbox of this car. See photo below.

This is the ex-Mike Parkes (May 1967) Syracuse GP winning car (either that or it's sister anyway). Chassis 312/66 #012 or #013. Note the unique configuration of the injection trumpets (between the two camshaft banks) and the positioning of the exhausts. Totally different to a normal '66 F1 Ferrari (injection in the middle of the 'V') or a '67 F1 Ferrari (exhausts in the middle of the 'V' - the classic bundle of 'white snakes') for that matter ....
But rather similar if not identical to the engine configuration of a P4. In fact this engine is VERY similar in external appearance to a P4 engine (apart from the fact that the P4 engine has the curved intake trumpets).

Tomorrow, hopefully (assuming this thread hasn't been shut down for some reason) .....
I will bring you photos of THIS car's engine and gearbox laid bare.

 

This line of logic does not hold true in any collector car that I know of. At some point in the path, the original car ceases to exist. In most collectible circles that point is reached whenever the factory serial number, or numbers, no longer exist. If the original car had a serial number stamped in the frame and on a tag riveted to the body, then both of those numbers must be intact in order to lay claim that the entire product is the "original" car. Starting in the 1950s, most manufactured cars had a serial number stamped on the frame and onto a tag riveted to the body. During the 1960s, many cars also had the serial number stamped into the engine block. (like Corvettes and others.) Corvettes also had the serial number stamped onto the transmission case. If the original serial number tag is missing from the body, then the car is suspect. (I've walked away from many cars that were missing the serial number tag.) If the frame is not original and the number is missing, then the car is more likely a hack job and is even more suspect. Non original engines are very common, but keep in mind that IF the original engine IS still present, the value of the car is greatly enhanced. And consequently, any car, racer or not, that does not have its original engine will have a value that is lower than a corresponding car that DOES have its original engine. You simply can't have it both ways. And there is no dishonor in analyzing these issues. They are brought up every day throughout the world of collectible cars.

 

That will be interesting. Do you know how many valves per cylinder that engine had?

Regarding your theory that Jim's engine is a bored out version of this engine, do you have bore and stroke numbers?, of this F1 engine and the P4 engine.

Humour: Maybe you have stumbled on to how Ferrari actually won this race, ie. the cheated and put a 4 litre engine in Mikes car

My theory on Mikes (and the sister car) engine is simply Ferrari tried swapping the cylinder heads ... ie. the 67' engine has the spagetti exhaust in the centre of the V, but did have inlet between the camshafts. Maybe the swapped the heads to get this configuration as a test ... ? It is possible. Ferrari did try many things ... especially then because their cars sucked.

Just a thought.
Pete

 

Totally agree, Horsefly, ie. that an original numbers car is worth heaps more. But absolutely continuous history does hold true in the collector world.

You probably need to live in NZ or Australia where old racing cars were sold off at the end of the season. These cars were then hacked and modified to keep them competitive way after they should have finished racing. Now I am not saying that these cars are sold as 'an original Ferrari', but the sales catalogues clearly lay out all the history and the restorer can choose what to restore it to.

They are storied cars and sold as that. Without the continuous history they would be worth NOTHING, but with that history they have much more meaning than what they ended up as, ie. a home built special.

Remember I am talking about RACING cars here, not classic cars. Very different. A racing cars value is based on its racing history and who drove it. A road cars value is based on its condition.

Remember Load Brocket sold his fully restored 50-something TR, for the same car that was a wreck. Why because the wreck was actually the Le Mans winner and thus worth FAR more.

Pete

[EDIT] PS: If you like the reason 0846 is so important to the classic RACING world is because it won Daytona. If it had not won such an important race it would be worth half the amount. This puts it up the ladder against the other P3's and P4's that didn't ...

Also many years ago one of those storied old race cars was restored to its original glory. I doubt very much if much of the original car was left, but that cars chassis (or the chassis that was rebuilt, etc.) and the continuous history pointed to that Alfa Romeo P3 having been the car that the great Nuvolari beat the Germans in Germany with. That car probably had a Chev v8 in it for many years in NZ and was thrashed around NZ beaches and gravel road coarses. If that car has its original engine/gearbox/diff(s) I will eat my hat, but it sold for squillions because of that race result!

 

In 1989, a man browsing in a country flea market purchased an old torn painting for $4 because he was interested in the frame. Concealed in the backing of the frame was what is known as a Dunlap Broadside (John Dunlap is thought to have printed 200 Broadsides which were distributed to the members of Congress). This particular Broadside is one of only four surviving copies of the Declaration of Independence in private hands and is among the best preserved of all 25 surviving copies of this historic document. It sold for $8.14 Million at Sotheby's.

 

So what ? So it was a fairly MAJOR mistake, Pete !

I think I probably AM wasting my time, here, but only in trying to help you guys figure this one out.

Which were the comparisons I believe I illustrated for you .....

So let me get this right. You're saying that it's O.K. with you (and maybe the rest of the readership) if it turns out that Jim's car actually has a Ferrari F1 gearbox (of questionable parentage) rather than a P4 type 603R gearbox ?

Pleasure, Mate !

 

Absolutely, could even have a Hewland. Paul, even if the authenticity Gods decide that there is enough 0846 in Jim's car to call it 0846, it will never be as it left the Ferrari factory. It will be a storied car, and thus having the gearbox replaced is just another part of the cars storied history.

This car will NEVER, EVER be as 0846 left the Ferrari factory, for one it has had the engine oil changed

Thus if this car is ever sold the auction catalogue will say:

Ferrari P3/4 0846 - Winner of Daytona '67. This car is believed to contain the repaired chassis of 0846, doors and engine. The gearbox is of type <insert whatever here> and it is not known when this was replaced *. This car was completely restored from the ground up by Jim G. as a coupe (0846 was originally compained by Ferrari as a Spyder) after purchase from David Piper.

* unless it is proved that this is actually the original gearbox and/or type.

You see how fruitless your debate is. Like I have been trying to say it will never be 100% 0846, only ever a bits and pieces car ... like 90% of used and real race cars.

Pete

 

Yes, Pete. We are talking about a 37 YEAR GAP in the history of this car. So what does that really make it worth ?

and by 'home-built' are you referring to home as:

Rosedene House, Windlesham, Nr. Camberley, Surrey, England ..... by any chance ?

 

I thought you were going to bed.

 

LOL...

Like Arlie said, it's healthy to be skeptic, but Paul, you obviously have an axe to grind...

 

Yup. Some story !

So maybe only 10% of original #0846 content would be O.K. with you, too then ?
O.K. Then I definately am wasting my time discussing this with you.
I'm off to bed. Goodnight, Pete ..... or should I say G'dday ?

 

My home is Sydney Australia as my profile states ... not sure what you mean with that comment, are you refering to Pipers residence?

When I was discussing home-built specials I was refering to cars that have been bought and raced over the years in NZ and Australia. The Alfa Romeo P3 that I mentioned is a good example. That car (a very special P3) was raced very hard in NZ over many years, when it was worth comparitably (sp?) nothing. The owner Ron Roycroft even bought another engine (of the same type) and they used to mix and match parts to keep it going. I have an interesting article at home written by the guy who used to maintain that car. I think they even made a new crankshaft, etc. They even replaced the orginal gearbox with a preselector. And I think after Ron's ownership ended it either ended up with a Chev v8 or a Jaguar engine!

This car was eventually returned to its original P3 (Alfa Romeo not Ferrari) configuration but probably used a BRAND new engine/gearbox, etc. during the restoration process.

WHAT maintains the value of this car, is that the history is known from the day it left the Alfa Romeo racing team (er, Ferrari racing team) and it can be easily traced right through until the restoration as the SAME car ... with home built modifications.

Thus now that car is restored and had many new parts but it is still the same car that won that important race, Nuvolari still drove it (or many parts of it).

This is how it works with these storied cars.

It is impossible to restore/rebuild a car exactly as it left the factory, you would have to find all the original bolts, rivots, suspension joints, etc. Totally impossible. Thus as all cars (and any machine) have to be maintained you use the continuous history to account for changes, ie. to authenticate these changes to the original specification.

Do you see where I am coming from?

Pete

 

Paul,

What don't you get?

Like I have said it will NEVER be 100% 0846. Maybe it will not have enough content for the authentication Gods to even allow Jim to call it 0846. We don't know yet. Why not wait and see?, they may agree with you and then Jim's claim is shot down.

Pete

 

The wife wouldn't 'play ball' !

 

Probably would if you gave her the same amount of attention as you are giving the authentication of 0846 ...

Good night.

Pete

 

Now that's funny! haha

 

That's where your wrong actually, Pete. It does ....
Check out the photos: http://public.fotki.com/P4Replica/my_p4_replica/
Look at it this way - This should at least give you and the other 'post whores' like NNO another opportunity to compose some more personal insults about me (and my car) while you're trying to figure it out !
And remember. This is a NOBLE P4 replica. NOT a Ferrari of ANY sort. O.K. ?

 

I appologise, thus why don't you make a claim to the authentication Gods then Paul.

You see the difference is that continuous history I keep talking about. It would not matter if you replaced just about everything on your car with genuine P3/4 parts because it started out as a Noble P4 replica (very well made I have to add).

What the authentication Gods will be trying to work out is whether Jim's chassis was made by Piper, or is 0846's chassis repaired by Piper (or somebody else).

It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

Pete

 

LMAO...! Dude, if i ever find myself Down Under, can i buy you a Foster's...?

 

.... Try 3 !