The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Yeh. There's lots of sheep in Oz, too, or so I heard ....

 

Sounds good to me. Make sure you bring your sheilds and we can attach them to my Toyota people move as we go Ferrari spotting ... haha

Pete

 

Yep, I believe so. Don't see as many as you do in New Zealand where I originated ... made leaving such a tough decision

Pete

 

Which one, Pete ? Lee Noble already admitted it was one of his !

Or are you talking about this Big Fella?

 

Do they have P4 replicas and inferiority complexes, too, or just the sheep in Swindon, England...?

 

I don't see P4replica as attacking anyone, I've followed this story for months. When I first asked the dreaded "what's the history of this car?" question I was attacked by all sides and even from another "not to be mentioned" forum. Let me say that JG's car is a work of art and a work of passion...nobody here is saying it isn't. I have enjoyed watching it's progress and think it will be a beautiful car when finished, I even hope to see it in person one day.

But just as P4replica said, Piper knows these cars....so why would he sell 0846? As mentioned earlier, having authentic Ferrari parts or even having Ferrari recast something doesn't validate the car. If you have enough money they will make anything for you. This is not intended to bash JG or anyone else, I think we are just being realists.

 

We were talking about Australia here, Carbon. But FYI, for Swindon read 'Pig Town' in Olde England.
Makin' bacon (as opposed to following like .....) .... O.K. ?

And Yes, to my knowledge there are a couple of Noble P4 replicas in Australia (and a sole Foreman P4).
One of the Noble P4's came up in an older FerrariChat thread.
See: www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/165223.html

Note the liberal use of the 'F***' word in post #2 of this thread, by none other than 'Napolis', himself - a word, which apparently, I am not even allowed to even hint at - specifically in any thread or post to do with #0846.
Not only does he summarily dismiss the Noble P4, using the 'F***' word, but also $250K's worth of Norwood P4 replica, belonging to Ferrari (and other car) collector, John Schumann of Vero Beach, Florida. Now bearing in mind that the owners of these cars weren't actually claiming their cars to be real P4's - it hardly seems fair does it ?

P.S. So it would hardly be surprising if we Noble P4 replica owners developed inferiority complexes, would it ?

 

If things get out of hand.....

 

Jay,

You probably were attacked because all you had to do was a little search on this site and you would have had all the answers ... Can you imagine how many times somebody has asked that same question!

And again NOBODY is actually saying it is 0846, even Jim, he thinks it is but he is waiting for verification. Thus the rest of us are sitting here patiently waiting for OFFICIAL results.

Paul (P4Replica) on the other hand cannot just leave it and wait like the rest of us. This is what I (we?) am giving Paul a hard time for, not the fact that he doesn't think it is 0846 ...

I for one hope for Jim's sake he gets the nod, but if he doesn't I know he will enjoy her just as much.

Pete

 

A little search?

It just seems that some don't like certain questions being asked, and those questions are all the right ones to ask...let's leave it at that, besides it really has nothing to do with any of us.

 

Paul,

Here is that post that upset you so much:

He is correct they are both replicas. The thread was discussing P3's and P4's and somebody posted photos of these replicas. I think it entirely appropriate for Jim to have answered that way.

Even if Jim's car simply turns out to being 100% built by Piper, it still used genuine Ferrari parts ... ie. the stuff he had left over. It is these parts lying around that prompted Piper to think, **** I could build a couple of cars here.

As wonderful as I am sure your Noble replica is, it is a million miles away from a P3 or P4, it used a completely different and much simplier chassis and as with a lot of these type of replicas, looks like the original and that is about as close as it gets. Now I imagine the Norwood ones are a lot closer, but Norwood ruined the looks of his car by raising the dash or something ... they look disgusting IMO.

This is one of the reasons why I do not want to build my 250LM replica, because it will never be a Ferrari, no matter how close I build it, and thus I will have this replica issue to deal with.

Thus again NOBODY is saying you can't say Jim's car is a fake, just please wait until the evidence is in ... like the rest of us.

Pete

 

My research information is that Piper makes everythig just the way it should be, this includes the steering rack, the wishbones, the uprights, carriers, brakes, the whole shooting match. So you can not tell by looking at the steering rack if its original or not.

 

I'm thinking P4 replica knows something that he can't simply come out and say because thier may be consequences. Anybody else notice that he has quite a bit of P4 knowledge, & knows lots of guys who are into P3/4's big time? I bet there is someone else out there who hung around with Piper who would know what happened to all those P4 parts. There may be a person who firsthand knows that the parts were thrown in the trash...
It is possible... I've heard in the early 70's you just about couldn't give away old racecar parts. Could the frame have ended up in a Modena junkyard ???

 

Sorry if this ruins our fun, but I must go back to Maranello Consessionaires this weekend and it seems to me that the address you have dispatched is very close. Would it be sensible for me to knock on David Pipers door and ask what he sold??

Or would that ruin the fun.


Perhaps it wouldnt matter what he said, it is clear that James thinks Piper has no idea what he sold. But talking to others it seems Piper is razor sharp. or if we are to belive JG's protestations that rich people are honest, then Piper must be very honest, as he seems to have a collection of cars worth 10's of millions of $'s

So what do you think??

 

Horsefly,



I think you are saying that if a car has the chassis plate then its correct?? Looking back through a few posts on James' car, he makes no mention of having a chassis plate, he just says that he has original stamped parts. So that being the case. Along with the now developing theme that it seems to have an F1 gearbox, which would make sense with the previous posts saying it is an F1 engine, then one assumes that James has a copy chassis, a very nice F1 engine, and some parts stamped with numbers.

The easiest thing in the world would be to get a stamp out and bang whatever number you wanted wherever you wanted, thus i'm not sure that I can be so enthusiastic about your chassis number dialogue?

Why the name "horsefly". You don't seem like a vicious little creatures of an insignificant size?

 

At the end of the 1960s there were lots of obsolete worthless sports-racing cars around Modena; the old garages at Monza contained several 250LMs and the odd GTO, I believe...................

But that doesn't mean they were scrapped or dismantled, only that no-one had the money or foresight to buy them as investments.


I didn't see anything identiable on P4Replica's Noble as a genuine P3/P4/412P part, unless he used the same stencil for the PROVA MO.


I've read all the posts in all the threads on this subject, and with an open mind; but P4Replica has used some injudicious language, unlike everybody else, including "bu*ls**t" more than once, which to me is the mark of an axe-grinder.

So I haven't dignified this thread by voting, and I won't waste any more time talking, only listening.


PWM

 

It is possible... I've heard in the early 70's you just about couldn't give away old racecar parts. Could the frame have ended up in a Modena junkyard ???

Good question....you should ask Tom Meade about that...he should know.
Best Regards4 Staff.

 

Just a couple (or three) little corrections to P4Replica's post #17, which I am sure he will take in the right spirit:

The F1 Ferrari shown is Scarfiotti winning the 1966 Italian GP in chassis #011, which was making its race debut, having been practised only at Monaco and Spa. The other two chassis of this type were #010 (winner at Spa for Surtees and then driven by Bandini) and 012, a specially lengthened car for Parkes which debuted at Reims and dead-heated with Scarfiotti's 011 at Siracusa. There was no #013!

All three cars were fitted with the 36-valve engine, with the intakes between the camshafts and side exhausts, just before Monza 1966. #012 was fitted with the centre-exhaust engine early in 1967, and Parkes won the International Trophy at Silverstone; it was written-off in his crash at Spa. #011 was driven by Scarfiotti at the Race of Champions at Brands Hatch in March 1967 (I was there) and 010 was to have been driven by Chris Amon but he sprained a wrist in a road crash after practise.

The centre-exhaust for 1967 was for the same reason as BRM used it in 1964: cross-coupling the exhausts gave improved torque, and also without side exhausts the monocoque alongside the engine could be made higher to carry more fuel and allow a slimmer chassis. Bandini debuted the first of the new slimmer cars at Brands Hatch.

And from post #12: "This time - two nice sharp ones of the gearbox of the Scuderia Filipinetti 412P #0848.

This car was originally going to be built in '66 as the third factory P3. Due to strikes it was never completed, so it was turned into a customer car (412P) in early '67"

But didn't you know Ferrari ran THREE P3s at Le Mans in 1966? Berlinettas #0844 for Bandini/Guichet and #0848 for Scarfiotti/Parkes, by Scuderia Ferrari, and Spyder #0846 for Rodriguez/Ginther, entered by N.A.R.T.

Just for the record, you understand.


PWM

 

And would it be totally out of the question that somebody recovered the remains from such a junkyard???
Many years ago exactly that was what happened in France when a young man in a junkyard found all the remains (including the twisted chassis and engine) of one of the three original Bugatti Atlantics, arround ten years after the car's fatal accident when hit by a train in a railroad crossing. To this day this find is still questioned by some people who thinks that history cannot be rewritten when new facts come to light.... The Bugatti in question cannot have it's original chassisplate, even after it is proven to be the original chassis, simply because the chassis number was taken out of the French registers by the French authorities after the car's accident. The car now sports another original engine and another original chassisplate(from another destroyed car), and still this car is recognised to be the original, which it truly is!!!
My point here is that sometimes history will have to be rewritten to be correct, and to show us the true facts from which we will hopefully be able to learn something!!!

 

Welcome to all our "new users" (usernames)
Greetings

Carsten

 

You are of course, perfectly correct Paul - my mistake. Sorry (but despite appearances, I AM human, and fallable). If you look at the (U.K.) times that I was posting, last night, you should also be able work out that I was pretty tired. Also having NNO posting his little 'interjections' every other post wasn't helping - so I must admit I didn't take the time to check everything, as I should and normally would have done.

Yes - #0848 of course did make it to Le Mans (it's first race) only to crash out. In fact it was at Le Mans in 1966 when Surtees finally walked out on Ferrari, over the rows with Dragoni over driver 'pairings', wasn't it?

So it's good to think that there is one knowledgable person out there who is reading what I post. But apart from you, I generally beginning to think I'm wasting my time of the rest of the readership. They're already brain-washed.

 

P4Replica,

Actually, the ratio of new information (history and tech details) to name calling (by both sides) is much improved on this thread. I realize that some are dug in and others often find your tone grating, but overall I personally have enjoyed this thread thus far.

Thank You,

Art S.

 

Pardon my french but to the guy who started this thread go F**k yourself. Get a life.

 

LMAO! Nice one, Arlie!

DL