The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Can I remind you, and Steve, that the first post in this thread was in 2003, that is 11 years ago. We also had the thread(s) on the old FerrariChat ... what I am trying to say is there is NOTHING new to add to this discussion, nothing. We've been there and had that debate, time to move on IMO.
    Pete
     
  2. jj2728

    jj2728 Karting

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    #5102 jj2728, Mar 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hey, I know, let's lighten it up a bit here folks. How about a photo taken by my father when he spent time with the team at Daytona in '67? This is one of my favorites because it's the only one that he took that has Bandini, Amon, Scarfiotti and Parkes together with 0846 as a back drop. Cheers and have a good weekend.
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  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #5103 miurasv, Mar 8, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
    First of all please let me make clear that I am not saying that the chassis that Jim Glickenhaus has is not that of Ferrari 330 P3/4 0846. Neither am I saying that it is.

    From the above post by Jim Glickenhaus it's only what I have highlighted in bold that are the words of Ferrari. The rest are by Jim Glickenhaus, written about himself in the 3rd person. The contents of the above post are what I believe is Jim's basis for stating that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis. Now please can you (Jim Glickenhaus, PSk, WAX, Peloton25, jj2728 or anyone else) tell me exactly where in the above post, or in writing anywhere else, that Ferrari actually confirm that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis?

    Regarding the Ferrari web site section "Your Garage" and "My Garage" replicating information/details he has submitted to Ferrari regarding 0846, a part of the web site that Ferrari's only intended viewee is Jim Glickenhaus, that he alone has access to, that are only available for Jim Glickenhaus to see for his private, personal use and entertainment, it is Jim Glickenhaus alone who has published it on numerous web sites i.e made it available to the public, not Ferrari. Please could Jim Glickenhaus let the members of the forum know if he has the express authority of Ferrari S.p.A. to reproduce, transmit, extract or publish details contained on their web site, that Ferrari do not warrant the accuracy of, in abidance of the terms and conditions of the site's rules?
     
  4. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Why do you even care about the second question? Really?

    The first is at least interesting and I'm sure the back and forth will continue but the second is just pathetic.
     
  5. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Sorry, but I trust Marcel Massini far more than that of the Classiche department. If Marcel says this is the real cheese then it is indeed the cheese. There could be a nominal amount of ambiguity, but when an expert of that caliber weighs in with an official opinion then that is plenty enough for me.
     
  6. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    The bottom line hear goes back to the agreement between E.F. and D.P. As far as we know no one else was in the room at the time,no notes or records have ever come to light detailing the terms of the agreement and those who might represent the two parties have agreed on what is now considered a satisfactory conclusion. It will always remain a topic of great interest and discussion. However the opinions of "muirasv" and his type do nothing to enhance the quality of the discussion and can safely be ignored. They serve no purpose. tongascrew
     
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  8. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
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    ...And the master Mauro Forghieri next to Bandini.
     
  9. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    I just performed a clean-up of the recent posts. Let me remind all of you:

    1. Keep the discussion about the car, not about other users. Personal insults and attacks will not be permitted.

    If someone makes a post with which you disagree, be an adult and attack the facts, not the person. Children resort to personal attacks and insults because they do not yet know how defend their positions.

    2. If someone insults you, do not shoot back with more of the same. Instead, be an adult and either ignore the comment, report the post, or both.
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #5109 PSk, Mar 8, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
    Steve,

    I want to remind you of something. I did almost post this already but removed it because I didn't want to get involved, but you need to understand a bit more about Jim's attitude to his cars.

    First of all you are working yourself into a direction which worries me because you are going to end up accusing Jim or David Piper of making a forgery of a P3/4 chassis. Do you really want to do that?

    Second, do you know the history of the Ford GT40 that Jim bought?

    Jim bought the Le Mans winning J6 GT40, but upon his usual thorough restoration discovered damage that could only be caused by Bruce McLaren. This meant that the car he undoubtedly paid a lot of money for did NOT win Le Mans but came home second. Now did Jim hide from this, no. He completed his cars restoration returning it to the correct colours for the McLaren car and it is now correctly know as the second place car. Think about this for a minute or two. Conceptually Jim lost a bundle of money with this honesty.

    Also I've been part of the "debate" about #0846 for I realise now over 11 years and Jim has been very upfront about every thing he has found. If he hasn't he is unbelieveably clever because he would have tripped himself up by now surely :). The evidence speaks for itself. The chassis in the car he bought from DP, is not a P4 chassis but a P3 chassis modified to enable a P4 engine to be installed. You have to start with a P3 chassis not a P4. DP had the drawings for a P4 chassis ...

    Lastly Jim owns 3 or so other very important Ferraris and many other important and fascinating cars. What motivation does he have in making up this #0846 story? ... he doesn't need to. He already has a collection minus #0846 that wins most "yeah I've got this back home in my shed" discussions ;).

    I'll leave it to you to consider and I hope you are enjoying your weekend.
    Pete
    ps: And read this post of Jim's: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142607423-post6515.html
     
  11. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    On Tom Meade, his personal recollections, and stories relayed after his death:

    1. There was a time when I was meeting with Tom regularly. He wanted me to author a biography on him, and at the same time, to help him with his latest project in a variety of ways. He also sought my help in selling various Ferrari parts. During this time, I questioned him directly about the possibility of chassis 0846 having passed through his hands and ending up with David Piper. He had no recollection of this ever happening, though he said he couldn't completely rule it out as a possibility. However, he flatly denied having told Patrick Faucompre that he had personally had any contact whatsoever with chassis 0846.

    2. Tom was never a reliable source of information, even on matters with which he had been directly involved, because A) he retained poor physical records and a limited personal memory of past events; and B) his stories changed regularly. For the most part, Tom did not record and retain the chassis numbers of cars that passed through his hands. It was simply of little or no importance to him at the time.
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    This story which he told two people is an interesting one. I'm going to video it and you can judge. There's a bit more to it then any of us realised. In the end the metal tells the story but
    if true and I believe it is it fills in a large blank in 0846 and another P car which MM identified
    earlier in this threat.
     
  13. El Wayne

    El Wayne Global Moderator
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    In my opinion, the metal tells the whole story and everything else is superfluous bull****: the ever-changing stories of Tom Meade, the car that Marcel saw in '77 with documents claiming to be 0846, anything that was once published on the Ferrari website, any and all legal findings by courts in the U.S. or elsewhere, and 99% of the other stuff contained in this thread. None of it is relevant to the question of whether or not your car contains any chassis remains from the original P3/4 s/n 0846. Forget about the distractions; the answers are all in the metal.
     
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  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    True. True.
     
  16. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran
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    Really great post because it really sums up the whole debate makes the debate itself redundant because there is little to debate, in my opinion of course.. I find it rather unfortunate some of the recent posts made in this thread and when one reads between the lines, yip I think my point is made.
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #5115 Napolis, Mar 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel testing 0846 at Amelia. iPhone flipped photo Marcel didn't.

    :)
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  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    How did he do with making brum brummmmmmmm noises? :D
    Pete
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #5117 miurasv, Mar 10, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
    Yes, I do know about Jim's other fabulous cars. 0854 is one of my absolute favourites ever. A 412P only comes second to a P4 in my book and there are many Ferraris that I am passionate about. I do know a bit about J6 too. May I correct you and let you know that it was the 4th placed car at Le Mans, 1967, not the 2nd placed car.

    Please do not say that I am going to accuse Jim and David Piper of making a forgery of a P3/4 chassis. May I remind you that all I have asked Jim to do is state where Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis, as he has stated. Oh, and also asked if he has permission from Ferrari to publish details from the Ferrari web site. As he has failed to answer these questions in a reasonable time I claim victory by estoppel. :)

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZEtVbJT5c]Royal Choral Society: 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Handel's Messiah - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. SCousineau

    SCousineau F1 Rookie
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    I did not know that the court of FerrariChat was in session.
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Correction accepted.
    Just becareful mate because that is the only end of the road. Also did you read the ps note in my reply because that answers your question ...
    Pete
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    He has his cars down in Florida, and is DRIVING them.....

    IMO, he wins!

    FYI, Ferrari made the quoted statement about the frame as they cast his new rear uprights, helping him return the car to roadworthiness..

    <<<Back there abut ten years ago.
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #5121 miurasv, Mar 10, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
    Are you saying that it was Ferrari who said the quoted passage in italics below, which is an excerpt from Jim Glickenhaus's post? If so then I herein publicly state that I am totally wrong and wholeheartedly and sincerely apologise to Jim Glickenhaus and do agree that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis. I hope that he will forgive me.

    "In July 2002 James Glickenhaus bought a car from David Piper that both he and David thought was a replica P4 built on a replica chassis to P4 chassis blueprints that had been given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari. After removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a, and 0900c Glickenhaus discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original P3 chassis of 0846 modified to accept a P4 engine exactly as described in: "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET' of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.0846". As it is impossible to build a P3 Chassis from P4 Blueprints it now seems likely that:
    "After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications.

    XVII Giro di Sicilia Official Program"
     
  24. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Somewhere back there is the description of how they discovered the content of the frame.

    The water runs in the rails, or something, and the "stubout" of that coolant system was clearly modified to accept the later engine.

    Then, they noticed the repairs from where the frame was wrecked in Italy in competition.
    The new material as well as weld variance was evident.

    And the frame remains somewhat 'off" from square as I understand it, from the same wreck, it hit a wall, broke a wheel and was DNF.

    I have changed computers so his 'paper" with the photos is on a flash drive somewhere.
     
  25. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Ferrari modified the frame when they updated the engine, so that is the "Technical Sheet" reference in that quote.

    You will have to find the actual Ferrari reply.

    It was a mild admonishment for "retrieving the parts from the trash" and an acknowledgment that the engines, transmission and other bits the bear Lemans stamps were "glorious pieces" of Ferrari's history..


    Enzo's lack of sentiment on obsolete race cars is well known, and scraping and reuse was common in the period the cars raced.
     
  26. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula Junior

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    I lack the time or energy to parse the semantics of web forum quotes of info from other web pages, etc., etc. But in 15 seconds Professor Google has given me two hits that I believe will go a long way to resolve Mr. Robertson's inquiries.

    One is from the a web page on 0846: 330 P3 s/n 0846

    The other is a December 16, 2005 post to this thread by Mr. G: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142613526-post4724.html
     
  27. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #5125 PSk, Mar 10, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
    Steve,
    You haven't read that link I posted have you ... sigh. Okay I'll explain because you appear to be so bloody minded. Are you sure you are not one of my sisters cause I had arguments like this when I was a kid ;)

    The reason Jim puts so much weight in the Ferrari owners internet site (My Garage) is because they did a large amount of research before accepting that Jim does in fact own #0846. That is what my link pointed you towards and it is written correspondence between Ferrari Spa and Jim.

    We thought it was just another silly internet site, but nope they verified the case first. Yes wrong picture but fact remains "they" (which is Ferrari Spa) believe Jim owns #0846.

    Come on mate, move on ... now if you are not prepared to accept this can I please direct you to the Airplane physics question thread where you can argue for years with equally bloody minded souls ;)
    Pete
     

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