The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Jim, may I suggest that that the communication from Ferrari to yourself in bold quotation marks below from your reply to F-Chat member Impdesigner on 02.08.07 will actually help you and the rest of us understand Ferrari's position of the status of your car?????? Also, would I be right to assume that the words in brackets "Not Destroyed" are additions by you?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-281.html#post142613207

 

La Ferrari P3/4 di James Glickenhaus? E' fra la regine del Concorso d'Eleganza Amelia Island.
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Highlights from the Amelia Island Concours d?Elegance (Post 1950) | Mind over Motor
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Nice digital rendering of P3/4.

Gallery: Digital 1966 Ferrari 330 P3
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You have also misquoted Ferrari above as you have done in many places. They said nothing about the car that exists today. What they said was:

"Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to build or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case."

You left the very important bit at the end, "if this is the case" without which the sentence may be misinterpreted as conformation that you revived the car from the trash container. When included as written it is not confirmation at all. You did this in your letter to John Barnes of Cavallino. See below for the relevant part:

"Ferrari has very clearly, in writing, twice stated that they were "scrapped" "written off" They have also in writing stated that: "Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off". As Ferrari S.p.A. helped me to rebuild the car that you have referred to as ""the current car that carries the s/n 0846" by manufacturing P4 Uprights specifically for me to use to rebuild this car in 2002 I find Ferrari's latter statement a bit disingenuous but that is a different matter."

Question: How did Ferrari S.p.A. manufacture P4 suspension uprights for you after receiving 120 pages of documentation from you which includes the information about the struts and the copy of the invoice for their supply? Umberto Masoni of Ferrari Classiche acknowledged receipt of the documentation from you in September 2004 and yet the invoice for these suspension struts from Ferrari New Jersey, not Ferrari S.p.A, which does not denote the chassis number 0846, is dated 23rd July, 2002.

 

You did it again here. Also, where did Ferrari Classiche actually confirm that the parts you have are the "Glorious Pieces" that they refer to in their letter to you dated 29th September, 2004?

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-281.html#post142613207
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Personally I think the shape of the P3 evolved from the 1965 Lola T70 MK 1.

For those in the area and who received invitations to Miller Motors Ferrari, McLaren,RR, Bentley,Maserati, Aston, Bugatti, and Pagani 24 Hours of Daytona Event a week from Wednesday 0846 will be there. She'll also be at Lime Rock Labor Day Weekend Sunday in the Park. Thinking of bring her to MMM as well. P 4/5 Competizione will be at the Greenwich Concours.
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POST 5757 IN REPLY TO JASON BODINGTON 1.13.2008.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-288.html#post142612740

I have not seen anywhere that Ferrari state that they do not dispute that the chassis remains of 0846 wound up in the car you say is 0846 as it exists today. That they have not publicly stated they do not dispute what you allege does not mean they do not dispute/disagree it and make what you allege true. I have not seen any evidence whatsoever that Ferrari have said that you have reconstructed 0846 and that the "Glorious Pieces" they refer to are the ones that are in your car. Please, you or anyone else show the forum the evidence and prove me wrong. I assure you I will be glad to be wrong. I suspect that the reason Ferrari saw no reason to debate this car publicly is they believe, or as far as they are concerned, 0846 no longer exists, so there is nothing to debate.

 

Yes, Mr. Robertson, your are quite correct, there is NOTHING left for or to debate, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*** For the record, this thread is actually about the car, and the restoration of the car 0846, not about your obvious obsessions with Mr. Glickenhaus and the car. **

***Please do not respond to this post, there is no need to do so. ***


Thanking you in advance.

 

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Jim, interesting that you mention this. Now, I am reciting this from memory so I may be wrong, but I have a magazine somewhere with an interview with John Surtees that actually sort of continues this story in respect to the T70 Mk3 which came later. Surtees asked Ferrari permission to race for Lola in Can Am as they weren't going to field a program, and everyone knew Can Am paid a lot more than the European series. Ferrari said 'OK', but when the new T70's started coming out, with shapes very similar to the P3 and 4, Ferrari were very displeased and Dragoni used that against Surtees, saying he was sharing secrets, when really there was probably no such thing going on.

 

Lola T70 MK 1 1965

Ferrari P3 1966

 

Your fixation is becoming a bit embarrassing.

 

At the risk of censure from the mods I am going to call into question you motive behind such posts, especially in light of your history on this forum in recent months.

Perhaps I should simply block you because its truly tiresome reading the same question being asked in 100 different ways.

What are you hoping to achieve here?

 

The Lola T70 also solved the Porsche 917 lift at speed issue thanks to David Piper (I believe) who pretty much put a T70 tail on his 917, or suggested it.

Great car the T70.
Pete

 

Is it me or the size of the rear tires are not correct ?
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The diameter,aspect ratio and tw are exactly correct. They were made by Roger Kraus by shaving and hand cutting. We used data from Ferrari and an original Firestone rear to make them. In the day tire construction did make straighter sidewalls and were bias ply not radial necessitating inner tubes but the specific dimensions are as they were. The Original Firestones are no longer safe nor manufactured. There is a replica Vintage Firestone but the dimensions it's manufactured in are not correct for P 3/4 or P4 and they are not speed rated for a safe speed for these cars except for show use.

 

Interested to know, what is the longest distance you've driven the car?
Lewis.

 

Lola's Eric Broadly was a great Engineer. Tails that spoil lift are a very important part of all of the cars that raced in this period. If they are too short and straight they are undrivable. Adding spoilers reduces lift but unless elegantly done produces a lot of drag. The solution is lengthening the tail and shaping it along a greater distance to reduce "spoil" lift. A number of people have taken credit for solving this problem. "A French Kiss With Death" which is about the 917's and the Making of The Movie Le Mans is a great book and goes into these issues and how they were solved. Engineers still wrestle with this today. We're doing a final tweak on our new road/race car to adjust this in our tail. You want the car to have low drag and high downforce but getting both is a challenge. So far we can reach a higher VMAX than P 4/5 C with about the same downforce using 80 less HP but are tweaking to try and get to higher downforce than P 4/5 C.

Cheers

You should get yourself to the 24 in 2015, hang with us and see how we do. You only live once and it's not something you'll ever forget.

 

My normal Drive is about a 100 mile loop. I've driven up to Lime Rock with is a little longer than that. At the Historic Targa Florio the longest stint was about 200 miles. On track days I've lapped for 4 hours.

 

Great stuff, what a treat for anyone to see this on the road.

 

Great cuts! Very nice.

 

I see now that the position of the Wheel in the wheel arch can varie a lot.
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Ha, you caught me JUST before my edit. The article was actually about the Mk3

As usual you're right.

 

Yes that is do to set up using different width spacers. I think we're close to Daytona 0846 set up.

Best