The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

While we are on the subject of David Piper, can someone either email me or post pictures of Pipers P3/4 he ran in South Africa in 68. I have the one picture that everyone probably has of the head-on shot, but I would really like a pic of the rear as I would like to make a model of it in 24th.

I also want to do a model of the 365P2/3 (not sure what to call it) of the car he ran at Daytona in 1967. I think it was car #31. But it was a green P2 with a P4ish nose. Any pics of this one anyone?

If nothing else he created some real oddball race cars that I want to build.

Thanks
Ed

 

Tell me, Skeet, what is it, exactly, that i've done wrong...?

 

Carbon, my advice is to give it up. Mr. Replica has an axe to grind, and no amount of logic or illgoic is gonna change his POV.

 

Now, now, Doctor... You know very well i don't just "give it up"... i'm very stubborn and have inadvertently burned some bridges due to being so hard-headed, but that's just me...

What Skeet fails to realize is this precious scenario: If what Jim has turns out to be a big flop and he has nothing more than what Skeet has, Jim will still have legions of "Tifosi" (as Skeet calls us)... And THAT, my friends, is what replaces the Skeet from the Phoenix 4...

 

Horsefly, You do not understand motor racing. Cars never, ever stay with the same body, engine, etc. that they were built with. Never intended to, engines get rebuilt every race (even back then), gearboxes, etc. thus when it comes back to putting the cars back together, they put the best engine in the best car with the best drivers, not the correct chassis. Also race cars get crashed all the time, thus the body gets rebuilt. I doubt very much if there is even a 250 GTO that has not had around 25% of its body replaced over the years of racing ... yet they are still worth a fortune.

Thus you have a choice, either buy a car with no glorious history that was never raced and locked in a vault straight after first being put together or buy a car with great racing history and has been maintained.

Personally I go for the car with the history, because if we never should have raced the car in the first place ... then what is Ferrari about and why bother building them?

Racing machines have little to do with road car Corvette prices, and if you can find a serious race car with all its original panels (even 0856) then I would be amazed. Even Jim's GT40 has had repairs to the rear deck ... and it only raced in one race!, and before it raced it would have been extensively tested, engines changed, suspension changed, etc. ... that is racing, the assembly of parts means nothing, just the race result.

Infact nobody probably knows the engine number that 0846 raced at Daytona with in 67' because nobody cared!

Pete

BTW: Your Corvette will still be an authentic 1957 Corvette, just not put together like that by the factory. If that is the claim to something been authentic then sorry there is NO car in the world that could be considered authentic ... think about most restorations, if a door is rusted beyond fixing then they go to a wrecker and buy another, oops there goes authenticity.

That is rubbish IMO, quite simply the history of that car simply needs to state that it was fully restored which required the replacement of a door, along with a few oil changed

Yes road cars numbers should match, and in my 1750GTV's case I would be very upset if I could not keep all the original components together, but if I bought an ex-works (autodelta) GTA tomorrow, I could not give a rats arse whether it had the correct engine number. I would be far more interested to find out where it raced with this engine.


Pete

 

Yes, that is true, but this is the reason for the passions found in this discussion. What makes it "THE" car? A wheel? A wishbone? A PIECE of the chasis or the whole chasis? Taking it to extreems, you could build your own chasis using factory blue prints to the exact specifications, then fabricate or source all the parts to make a P4 or a GTO or any other vintage car. If you add a piece of an original car that was wrecked is that still a restoration? Where do you draw the line? That is the question, and that is what has so many people running hot. Again, I think what JG is doing is fantastic but what is it? What does the ownership say? What is it registered as? I don't think that Jim cares what we think, but being a public forum this is what you must expect to happen. I don't call it jealousy, it is a genuine interest in knowing the details, which aren't forthcoming.

 

"Thus you have a choice, either buy a car with no glorious history that was never raced and locked in a vault straight after first being put together or buy a car with great racing history and has been maintained."

I am assuming that you/Ferrarista define "maintained" as having only 20 percent or so of the original car left after years of this so called "maintainence"? We are right back to Grandpa's ax again.

"In fact nobody probably knows the engine number that 0846 raced at Daytona with in 67' because nobody cared!"

Why is it that the Corvette that was driven by Dick Gulstrand at Lemans in 1967 no longer has its original engine and the people that rebuilt the car know that fact. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Traco Engineering built another engine for that car when it was being restored.) So why can't somebody DEFINITIVELY determine if 0846, or any other ultra-rare racer, has its ORIGINAL engine under the hood? Could it be that there is an advantage to INSINUATING that the engine MIGHT be the ORIGINAL engine? Sounds like we/Ferrarista in general are trying to DRIFT the mystique of the car toward a "more imagined" legitimacy. As I said before, we've seen this many times in the collector car world, and in typical "mob mentality", everybody goes along with the flow of admiration, and BLASTS people like P4Replica who "kick the sacred cow" by bringing up some very legitimate doubts and some very hard questions.

If we're talking racers, then consider the 500 plus horsepower 1967 Corvette with the L88 aluminum cylinder head engine. They only made 20 of these. If I were to find a scrap of the original frame from one of these cars, add reproduction parts to the frame scrap to complete the frame, add a non-original body that was never installed on the car from the factory, install a non-original engine under the hood and THEN display the finished product at a concours show with a sign indicating that THIS CAR IS AN L-88 CORVETTE RACER, it would be the subject of sneers and disgust among the knowledgable enthusiasts because they would KNOW that the car is essentially a 90 percent replica and/or fabrication or even more rudely, a FAKE.
In my above example, we are directly comparing limited production ultra rare racers with ... limited production ultra rare racers. An original 1967 L-88 Corvette with racing history will probably sell for a few hundred thousand dollars, IF you can find one for sale. And I don't think for a minute that somebody will consider giving that kind of serious money if the car is essentially a reproduction built from a few scraps of an original frame.

So shouldn't this same logic apply to Ferrari?

 

"Moderation in the pursuit of justice is NO virtue. - Barry Goldwater
Horsefly signing off for the weekend.

 

Horsefly,
As I am very interested in vettes and own a restored original 69 427 I would like to address you.

As I think you're aware engine blocks in vettes are stamped with the VIN number. Even the race cars had stamped blocks as many were street cars converted for off road use. I beleive GM had to do that as a matter of law. All cars made by GM were VIN'd. GM had to account for everything sold. I do not think this is the case with Ferrari race car engines or parts. There may be some indentifying marks but not for a specific chassis as far as I know. The only people they had to please were the rule makers of the certain races they wanted to compete in. Also to keep answering the same questiont hats being aslek, the chassis plate which is on the frame is THE CAR.

Even within Corvette circles, its well known the chassis is the car. This has been established in court several times and with some regard to a well known Corvette.

Also you are using certain terminology incorrectly when talking about your 57 vette scenerio.The use of the word original. Even if you had all the original parts once you restore the car, its no longer original. Thats what a SURVIVOR award is. You have a restored original car. Still very desirable and more so than a restored to original without the original motor, tranny, ect and more than a restored hack. Whenever they restore a corvette many times replacement body parts are used. Thats fine. The body doesn't really mean anything as long as its true to what was originally there such as color and so forth. Thats what the word 'restored' means.

Now to further compare Vettes to Ferraris, like apples to thumbtacks, there are many major differences. Even with the 20 '67 L88's you would need the stamped chassis part that is identifiable, such as the serial number for a gun for example. Even without the original motor you could put a correct motor in it. The car would still be valuable but not as much as one with the original power train as that is important and absolutely able to be identified.

With Ferraris espcially race ones its unrealistic to have the original engine in the car. Its not that way with street Vettes. They made so many. Even race vettes usually don't have the numbers matching engine, but some do as they were not raced but purchased and driven on the street. If any do they are worth considerably more of course. Even the rare vettes are made in much bigger quantity then compared to F cars. Some of the most valued Vettes are the Baldwin Motion cars. Many don't have the original motor but will still command high dollars. Same with the race Corvettes. They still take in big money (for corvettes anyway) and with Vettes just like Ferraris, the chassis is the car. I've consulted along with a friend of mine for Joel Rosen of Motion Peformance when he would get inquirys as to how to restore some of his Corvette Phase III GT's. They are some of the biggest high dollar vettes out there and I'm a nobody. But Joel knew that myself and my friend Dominick knew what the cars looked like better than anyone else he knew. Anybody who knows Rosen can verify this. Joels yellow 71 which I beleive he recently sold went for a rumored $400,000. Thats the ballpark number.

Everyone knows when a Ferrari race car is restored its not going to be original. Thats not what matters to the Ferrari collector. What matters is the chassis. Ferrari race cars stop being original before the first race as changes are made in preperation and time trials. Its nothing like Grampas Ax where the head and then handle are replaced. Something must remain. Did I mention that would be the chassis? Its not a matter of percentage, its the chassis plate or identification tag or whatever you like to call it. So the original engine is not important but it should be as correct as possible. Its not some insinuation as you put it. Actually very few Ferrari people car about that. You are bringing the Vette/Muscle car mentality into this and its just not the same. The engine is not as important as the chassis.

If you take an original corvette, take JUST the chassis and sell the rest of the parts including body, ineterior etc. The person who has the chassis owns the car regardless that the rest of the car is of a higher percentage of that original car. Another person can take the parts and place it on a chassis he built himself. The possessor of the original chassis is still the owner of the car.

The final comparison is taking the race Vette at several hundred thousand dollars. I'm sure if JG's P4 is found to not be 0846 it will still be worth more than the race vette, I don't know maybe a million. If its 0846 could be 10 million. I could be way off but they are not in the same catagory of cars.

In conclusion, you can not treat Ferraris the same way we treat muscle cars, even the American race cars. They just have different standards.

Ed

 

@Ed,

That's absolutely correct!!! THE CHASSIS is THE CAR and so goes for all of the cars I have ever heard of, and that's what I intended to say in my earlier post #90 ! Even if you change all the parts put on an original chassis or frame, this chassis would still be recognised as THE CAR with the history and that is what is important.....the history of the chassis, even if broken or twisted or repaired..... and not the history of some wrecked parts or broken pieces that used to sit on this chassis/frame when it left the factory!!!

Best regards

Carsten Christiansen

 

You're joking, right?

 

My understanding is that Ferraris ability or interest in keeping records was typical Italian, ie. they did not care. Same can be applied with Alfa Romeo, and makes tracing cars very, very difficult.

I also believe that Ferrari used to purposely change cars identity all the time to get around import duties, etc., thus a car with chassis X might be chassis Y a week later.

A nightmare for historians. Remember nobody actually knows which Ferrari is actually the first Ferrari ... why?, because Ferrari did not care, and also did change cars identities later in their life.

We also know that he sold many ex-race cars as brand new cars to unsuspecting customers ... with a new identity ... all in all Enzo was a very good con man

Pete
ps: The other thing that makes this different is the race Corvettes are special because they are a small run of a huge production run, and thus have rare components. With a Ferrari P4 we are talking about 4 cars here, so collectors really do not have the luxury of being picky ...

 

@Pete,
Correct, and in fact this goes also for a lot of other Marques as well, and indeed it is a huge detective job for the historians to find all the evidence that will determine the identification of a speciffic chassis!!! This practise with changing the identity of cars and fixing papers to get arround import duties was also very much used by Ettore Bugatti.

Best

Carsten

 

Ed. I can probably help you out on both counts there. Will scan and email you after the weekend.
Best, Paul.

 

I don't mean pictures if that's what you're asking. Sure we all love to look at them, but every time we ask to see what makes him believe it is 0846 there is no answer, which is fine and entirely up to him, but it fuels the fire of this debate. Again, there is no question it is a beautiful car but is there a number on that chasis? I think that It's clear that there is not, so what leads everyone to believe it is 0846? That is what everyone wants to know...It's not personal as some are making it out to be.

 

The damage to the chassis that Mr. G. purchased echoes that of the damage incurred by 0846 at Le Mans... He didn't know this when he bought; he wasn't told this when he bought it... He just bought it so he could start making a racecar and slowly, these interesting observations began to surface...



Now, as for how much is original and how much is replica/recreation, and what percentage of which makes something a bona fide original or a replica is an ongoing debate that NO ONE has the right answer to, not even the historians or the factory or even MED)...!

250 GTOs, back when they were worth about what my Sebring is worth now, were raced and wrecked and rebuilt; body panels, engines, the whole nine yards... i doubt that there's still a GTO today that is as it left the factory 40 years ago... So who gets to decide what's real and what's not...? We know that the factory goes by chassis and not engines because there are so many cars out there with engines that originally started in other cars, it's almost impossible to trace everything back to the drawing board...

So Jim 'Damn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta' Glickenhaus buys any old chassis to make a racecar and slowly begins to realize that it MIGHT not be just any old chassis... The rest is history and here we are now...

 

Nothing personal NNO but everyone has the right to answer whatever way they want about whatever they want. You gonna tell us we can't?

And what makes something a bona fide original is not an ongoing debate. There is legal precedence to back this up (at least in the USA). What is ongoing is if this can be established for 0846.

Time will tell

Ed

 

SORRY NNO

I misread the damn sentence,
My apologies

Ed

 

Ed, show me where i said you folks COULDN'T say what you wanted... This is all similar to the whole 01C argument, when it resurfaced... What's original, what's not, is it REALLY what it looks like, etc.... You folks can say whatever you want, it's just not gonna mean much... How would YOU like it if someone told you YOUR car isn't real...? Who are we to say what is and isn't...?

 

Read post 120, thats why I apologized

Ed

 

LOL, thank you, i didn't even see your apology... No sweat, no harm, no foul...

 

I think I am the only one of us that has actually raced for "Piper auto racing" I'm also sadly the one asked not to get too involved in this conversation.

It seems from skimming through the messages, very few people will put their money where their mouth is and actually vote. After so much belly aching (all good fun to read) it really is a suprise. I suppose if we all hedge our bets then we can all be right in the future.

Well done P4 Replica for doing this, I salute you. David and Goliath stuff.

 

You can see 0900a it's with David Piper. Which may give you a good chance to ask him about matters I dare not speak.

I was really referring to my "moody" p4, which really gets up peoples noses. Oddly not the people I race against, who seem to love it.

Well, anyone who likes can see either of them,

 

I take it that you missed the fact he came third in South Africa in Feb and second at Monza in a 917 two weeks ago. With time to stack his 275Lm into a wall at Maccau in between. Very much alive.

Who was the character who tried to replicate the 0846 chassis number before. It ended up in court with Piper as the elected P4 professional witness. Following, finding out David was the witness the claimant elected to let the matter drop. I can't think of his name, but if it comes to light I'll be sure to let you know.

 

Max,

Do you have any photos of YOUR Piper P4's chassis? and could you show them?

Pete