The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Okay, so would it be different if Noble or someone else had the technical plans and made an exact chasis and obtained parts from say...ebay I'm not trying to stir up trouble just putting out items for discussion.

 

No, but Noble have never ever tried to copy the design at all, just make a car that looks like a P3 or P4. Big difference. The other diffence is that Ferrari agreed to Piper making his car ... Ferrari probably have never been approached by Noble, and might be why the Noble car is so far away from a real P3 and P4, ie. legal reasons.

BTW: Noble's chassis about as close to a P3 or P4 chassis as my Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV chassis is to a P3 or P4. Nothing like it at all.

Also Piper made 0900 a long time ago ... which is relevant. P4Racer can probably add exactly when but I think it was not long after the P3/4's were current.

Pete

 

J. Grande,

Have a look at this thread: P4 Noble replica that Mark Collins made. Looks great too.

Now here is a picture of the Noble chassis from that car with the 348 engine being dummied up:

As you can see it is nothing like a P3 or P4 chassis. This makes sense as Noble are trying to make it simplier to make, etc. Remember making these copies is a business ... Ferrari made their chassis to win races. Different ball game.

Pete

EDIT: Continuing on, here is a picture of Jim's chassis (from this thread P3/4 Chassis ... like I said if you searched the old Ferrari chat archives you will find an enormous amount of information on Jim's car and much of the authentication discussion (same questions over and over ) and the answers Jim gives ... interesting details to say the least).

As you can see Noble made no attempt to replicate the chassis.

 

If Max Wakefields car is supposted to be the twin, what is the deal with that one? What engine does it have and what does Ferrari clasify his car as? What is it worth to the public?

 

Yes I personally cannot understand why Max continues to play with his Noble based replica when he (or his son) owns this baby. Do not know if it even has an engine ... ?

Pete

 

There is no secret tribunal. Its been repeated over and over in the threads. Just take a look.

Corvette circles have Bloomington and Survivor awards. What makes them so special? Because "they" are recognized by the population of Corvette owners as the standard to be judged by. In both thier beauty and legitimacy.

The people that will decide the fate of 0846 will undoubtedly have similar credentials that the "wine and cheesers" as you put it, recognize as authorities on the subject. Most likely Ferrari SPA and noted Ferrari historians and judges you would find at Monterey or events such as that.

What makes "them" right is a thing called "credentials". There reputations, having done it before, or other things they may have done or written.

Its no different than asking Larry Shinoda when he was alive (he was involved in designing some Vettes) or asking Duntov or any other " Corvette authority" with "credentials" to verify something they were either involved in or have knowledge about. The "Rosen letter" comes to mind.

If you found the head of the hammer (from the other thread) from LM and some "authority" lent some credibility to the story, then someone would beleive it.

This happens all the time in EVERY collectible forum. Coins are graded by the American Numismatic Association (ANA). Counterfieting is a big problem. What makes the ANA so special? Answer: An accepted, reliable standard.

Why not go to a Witch Doctor in a subway in Manhattan instead of the hospital? Just because the Doc in the hospital has a medical license?? (creditial) And because he graduted from Med school? (another credential)Who are they to decide he knows what he's doing. What makes them "right" and any other group "wrong" as you put it

As far as buying there credibility, its unlikely. Because if it was found out that a "authority" knowingly was involved in such a scam, they would lose all respect and for what? A bribe?

I really doubt that 0846 will be decided by some bum off the street who drives a Hugo.

There have been problems in the past. I beleive the 1949 LM winning 166MM
had been in dispute. 2 owners claimed ownership. I don't remember how that one or who resolved it but I do remember the one they found that was NOT the real 49LM car was owned by someone with lots of money and a big name. So its not all about how big your muscles are.

Ed

 

So what is the "accepted, reliable standard" that you refer too? The ANA has its well established MS grading standards that are written down for all to conform to and grade by. So where are the written standards for Ferrari originality????

As for taking a Doctor with a medical license over a Witch Doctor waving a bone: Please tell us where the Ferrari Standards University is located. And please name some of their graduates along with their date of graduation.

How can you hold a collectible vehicle up to some mysterious "standards" when those alledged "standards" aren't even written down and available for examination and/or clarification? The National Corvette Restoration Society has massive judging manuals for each year model of Corvette submitted for judging. But even THEY don't have any policy that says what percentage of a car must be original to qualify as the "original" car.

Please enlighten us on what the Ferrari standards are.

 

This is the second posting of this information ...

If you really want to see the "standards"

Take a look in "CAVALLINO" number 140 April/May 2004 or go to www.owners.ferrari.com (if you are a registered member of that site, you can get the information there).

I consider this information important reading for any owner of a Ferrari that is 20 years of age or older. The expository review in "CAVALLINO" is enlightening.

There is no mystery nor secrecy regarding these standards: it is all in black and white printed, published and desiminated.

Best wishes

 

Fiat Dino 206 hopefully just answered your Ferrari standards questions so I can skip that. Since its all written down in the magazine I hope that sheds more light on you question

There is no Corvette Standards University. Does NCRS hand out graduation diplomas? You wouldn't be holding Ferrari to a "double standard " now, would you? The NCRS is just a group of people who decided to make a set of rules for all to follow and they agreed upon it.

The people involved with deciding if a Ferarri chassis is a specific car must be held to the same high standard as the NCRS. If not nobody would consider it legit. Why would they? 0846 will be inspected by Ferrari SPA. The company that originally built the car. Along with other individuals of at least some importance, these things must be established. If not, nobody, including myself would beleive what any single person believes as fact about there car.

You are correct that the NCRS does not have a formula for how much or even exactly what establishes the "original" car. I don't know where on vettes the VIN number is on the chassis. I know (as is listed in the NCRS manuals) the VIN/data plates are located on the visable body (my vettes VIN is seen through the windshield for example) They only give every instance on where you can locate serial numbers to the original pieces of the car to indicate the original parts (for those pieses that have serial/casting numbers). That is an interesting question concerning Corvettes.

Ed

 

This is interesting because it shows that with enough money and/or celebrity the Ferrari factory will say what ever you want them to say. Regardless of using "original" plans and parts to build the car, it was not made in Italy by the factory and yet Ferrari puts a chassis number on it?

 

s/n = 900/Piper

 

I am confused here!!!!! Piper made 3 P4's on ferrari chassis? He made them himself at his shop? Did ferrari give him new parts for these or did he fabricate anything he didn't have? Also, Did he sell them when he was done?
Erik

 

You guys are gonna have to wait for the book. These threads have the critical info buried in so many posts.

The fact is Ferrari OUTSOURCED the frames of the cars to an ITALIAN fabricator. I've seen historical photos of them stacked up outside rusting, waiting for engine and body. Bodys were outsourced too, on street cars, with bodies of the racers being banged together of sheet aluminum over a tree stump behind the factory. You can see the hammer marks all over them in period racing photos!

From what I understand, Piper's three frames were made in ITALY at a fabricator who had the plans in hand from the factory, so they cannot be far removed from the originals, although I don't know if the EXACT same ITALIAN fabricator was used. Obviously since it WAS later in time, after the cars were being made and supported from the factory, I doubt it was from the same mill run of tubing!!!

Don't blame you for being confused Teenferrarifan, but obviously the three frames, that became two complete cars under the 0900 VIN, are much different from the later "kit cars", aside from the engine used. The statement about only so many P3/4 engine blocks in the world being the limiting factor.
Someone get me Hogg Farm on the phone!!

 

Piper's shop was in England. As opposed to the work done in Italy.

Max Wakefield has one frame of the three, without an engine or body, I believe. He's posted on the gearbox thread.

I'll have my popcorn with extra butter, but also without those strange flavors!
That stuff causes cancer, in lab rats.

 

The factory didn't "say anything you want them to say". They gave permission and assistance for the customer to use there blueprints for a chassis. They assigned the chassis the number 0900 to distiguish it from the original race cars. So far no deception I can tell. Whats wrong with Ferrari giving it a number? Now it can be conclusively identified as the "chassis that Piper built". Nobody has ever tried to claim or referred to this car as a Ferrari built P4.

Ed

 

That is exactly what is causing all of these threads.

One of the replica chassis was sold and the new owner beleives that it may be or have part of one of the original chassis P3/4's, 0846. That is what has started this craziness.

As you can see, it has caused controversy. Is it genuine or isn't it? Can it be indentified even if it is? Who is qualified to make that decision and why? What are the ramifications of any particular decision?

Ed

 

I thought Mr. Piper had the chasis builder that built the originals make his using the original tooling.

Can anyone confirm this?

Art S.

PS. Wax, that Herman Munster Avitar is scary

 

He had them built, in Italy. With the blueprints in hand.

 

That's not Hermann Munster, it's the best darn boat captain in the Mekong Delta, bro.

Some would say......

 

Wax told me it was a picture of the next Michael Dukakis.

You're telling me he's the captain of the Love Boat.

I think it's a scary picture of Herman Munster.

Whoever he is, it looks like he has a sunny disposition.

Warm Regards,

Art S.

 

I'd be sunny too, if I was sleeping with the Hienz $$$$$ every night!

Pass the ketchup, would ya???

Another P4 sniping thread, trashed beyond repair.......

 

I don't think it was Love they were spreading in the Mekong.

They were shooting mortars at rocks, from what I've heard......

A salute to all our brave Veterans this Memorial Day weekend.
Some gave all........some still do!!. (Salute)

 

Well, Gentlemen. I've just been catching up with the various P4 threads. Nice to see there's still some interesting discussions going on. My PC has been down since last Friday evening - it was 'struck down' by a mystery virus (must have been hate-mail), not long after I posted the Steve McQueen photo! Don't know if I ought to throw my spanner (or is it hammer head?) in the works again, or just let you guys get on with it ..... Later maybe, Dudes

 

Funny you should say that, Nick, because while I was going through the restore and back up of my hard drives, earlier this week, I found a very interesting email from just over a year ago. The question is: Shall I? Dare I?

 

"Fiat Dino 206 hopefully just answered your Ferrari standards questions so I can skip that. Since its all written down in the magazine I hope that sheds more light on you question"

Instead of asking everybody to go look in some magazine that many people do not have, why not just answer the question? WHAT PERCENTAGE OF A FERRARI'S BODY AND/OR FRAME AND/OR ENGINE MUST BE INTACT FOR A FERRARI TO CORRECTLY BE CLASSIFIED AS ORIGINAL?

"There is no Corvette Standards University. Does NCRS hand out graduation diplomas? You wouldn't be holding Ferrari to a "double standard " now, would you? The NCRS is just a group of people who decided to make a set of rules for all to follow and they agreed upon it."

I have no double standards involving Corvettes. I started saying the same thing many years ago to several friends concerning the rebuilt Corvette mongrels that were passing themselves off as original cars. I even mentioned a specific 1963 Corvette in one of my previous postings. I guess you didn't read that posting.

"The people involved with deciding if a Ferarri chassis is a specific car must be held to the same high standard as the NCRS."

For what it's worth, I don't hold the NCRS in very high standards. Most NCRS quality cars have restamped engine blocks that are not original; they just look original. SOOOO original, that you can't even tell the difference. They even have reproduction "build sheets" that are printed with the same "font" style as the original 1967 era computer printers. So one must assume that any particular car could be a repro/counterfeit without some iron clad documentation.

"They only give every instance on where you can locate serial numbers to the original pieces of the car to indicate the original parts (for those pieses that have serial/casting numbers). That is an interesting question concerning Corvettes."

All the Corvettes from 1953 up have the serial number stamped into the frame. Sometimes it is stamped in two places. The body has the serial number tag attached inside the drivers door on pre-1963 models, but the tag is held on with 2 screws which only take about 1 minute to remove. The frame number tells all. Post 1962 models have a more elaborate riveted tag under the glove compartment as well as frame stampings.

And so we now say that Piper had a few frames built in Italy outside of the actual Ferrari factory. I remember during some previous debates that somebody mentioned that outsourcing of bodys were common place. Coach builders like Scaglietti, Fantuzzi, etc. But now we're being told that FRAMES were made elsewhere as well. If so, that means that the only REAL ORIGINAL Ferraris were those that were actually constructed INSIDE THE FERRARI FACTORY because all the essential components like bodies and frames were actually made elsewhere.

So let's review: All the old Ferraris were built at the factory using bodies and frames built somewhere else. But if Piper builds a Ferrari in England from the same type of outsourced bodies and frames, it is ALSO considered an original. But if I build a Ferrari in Arkansas or Texas or Borneo out of the same outsourced type of bodies and frames, it is considered a replica.

What a whacked out bunch of standards. Where's my wine and cheese? I feel a snob attack coming on!