The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Horsefly:

Here is a background on the process ...

http://www.ferrarimarketletter.com/articles/index.cfm?fa=ArticleView&id=2049&CFID=659201&CFTOKEN=65735733

haven't yet found a source for the full "bucket load" of information contained in the "CAVALLINO" article. I'd just copy it and put it on this site except that it is a bit long and a bit of a crime.

By the by, Barnes and Nobles bookstores sell "Cavallino" in this area (southern United States) for $7.00 plus state and local taxes. Some other bookstores may have it available.

www.owners.ferrari.com

much of the site is closed to all but registered owners of Ferrari or I would just see to it that you were provided with a link that would open the information to you. But since it is a "closed" site that too might be an infringement on copyright.

Like to be able to help ya, but I don't want to go to jail for you.

I cannot answer your question as to what percentage of any one vehicle might or might not qualify as that is a matter between but just two parties: The current owner of any vehicle making application and Ferrari.

Best wishes

 

Thanks for the link Dino, but here's a paragraph that merely increases the cloudiness:

From the Ferrari Market Letter site (I don't think Gerald will mind the quote):

"As a result it is entirely possible that Ferraris will be declared "authentic" which actually fall short of that definition under strict objectivity, while others might be denied certification or issued certificates which contain "qualifications". Such judgments will affect a car’s value, and the potential for abuse is obvious."

I particularly note the passage, "fall short of that definition under strict objectivity". In other words, when everybody is standing around sipping their wine and eating their cheese at the Concours de Snobithon, everybody will pat each other on the back and declare that the Emperor has new clothes and that his latest vintage Ferrari is wonderfully authentic despite the fact that it has a new frame, new body, non-original engine, etc, etc.

And all of this AFTER an "application" fee of up to 3000 Euro dollars!!!

Sounds like a bunch of mish-mash hogwash to me. If one has to pay 3000 dollars in order to have some group "convince" the Ferrari world that a certain car is authentic, the it's pretty obvious that there were some serious doubts to begin with.

 

Everyone please excuse this question as I know this is a Ferrari board and not part of the original thread.

Horsefly,
The NCRS manual I have does not state where the serial number is on the frames of the cars. Can you tell me where it is located on a 69 Corvette? I am fairly sure my car is mostly original but I would really like to know where the frame stamping(s) are.

I would appreciate any info you might be able to provide.

Thanks
Ed

 

It's interesting (for me) to see these comparisons to Chevy's and Vettes being bought into the P4 discussion.
As some of you may know, I run a registry for P4 replicas (http://www.p4replica.com), and several owners of Noble and Foreman P4's, both in Europe and U.S.A., have fitted Chevy (mostly 350 HO) V-8's in their cars.
There's even one owner from Indianapolis currently building a Foreman P4 kit with a LS1 aluminium Vette motor.
Callaway ZR1 powered P4 replica anybody ?

 

Ed, I have not ACTUALLY examined a '69 frame, but the frames are basically the same between 1963 and 1982. Shark models have some additional front frame reinforcements starting in 1968. The frame number on my '66 is stamped on top of the frame rail just an inch or two in front of the left rear body mount (the one on the driver's side of the gas tank). You will have to use a mirror and a flashlight because the number is on TOP of the frame rail. Very hard to see. You will probably also have to scrub the area with a wet rag to remove years of dirt if your car was never restored. There may also be a stamping on the top of the driver's side frame rail near the location where your left arm would fall with the driver's door open if you were sitting behind the wheel. I have never actually seen this stamping on my '66, but it does exist on my '57. There could also be another stamping on the top of the driver's side frame rail where the frame goes up over the rear axle. I don't have access to the photographs in a magazine article that showed the locations. But hopefully that may help some. These numbers are very difficult to read with any dirt on the frames. And be advised that most older cars have frame numbers like Ferraris and Corvettes. Older Jeep trucks and Ford Thunderbirds also have these frame numbers. It's just not as well known because they don't have such rabid nit pickers as do Ferraris and Corvettes.

 

There was another F-chat member named NickM who bought a P4 replica off E-Bay and was converting it to a spyder configuration. He hasn't posted in quite a while. Wonder how his project is going? For all my rantings concerning originals versus replicas, I admire them all. I wish that I could locate one of those Noble/Foreman replicas like NickM did. Even though we all admire the Ferrari P4s, none of us will ever have the real thing. Might as well have some fun, one way or another.

 

Thanks Horsefly,
Now that the weather is nicer I'll be pulling the car out more regulary. It looks like the first nice day we have I'll be getting pretty dirty. I knew they had to have a stamp but I just never checked or found out exactly were to look.

Thanks again,
Ed

 

Nick Mrozinski (Nick M. aka NickandCindy) posted to this thread only a few days ago - and I just replied to his, a couple of posts back. His P4 is coming along slowly - doesn't get that much time to work on it (running his own body shop) though. I guess he'll see it through, but the car is going to be a lot of work, because it had been chopped around a fair bit. Nick's just gone on vacation for a couple of weeks - a well earned rest - Maui, I think he said. Nick's car came up on eBay, as you correctly stated, at the end of February last year. He bought it from a dealer in Scottsdale, Az.
A couple of months back, I tracked down another Noble P4 - chassis #043 (this one was a bit different, because it had the Jim Carpenter 'basket-handle' Spyder tail). Anyway, this other owner (who, funnily enough, also happened to live in Scottsdale) had owned this kit since '91 - and never built it. Couple of weeks ago, I contacted him again, and he told me that he had decided to sell it, instead, as he reluctantly accepted that he would never finish it. Within two days, I found him a cash buyer (who had just contacted me, looking for a project car), from Mesa, Az - about 20 miles down the road !
So if you're SERIOUSLY looking for a car, Horsefly - let me know your approximate whereabouts and price range, and I can probably find you something. No commission ..... just details for my register is all I ask.

PS - By the way, Arlie - my little brother runs a cherry '64 Vette convertible ....

 

Thanks for the offer Paul. I am still a bit vague on the various differences between the assorted replicas. I believe that first there was the Noble replica, then the Foreman replica that NF Auto sells in England. Wasn't there an earlier version? And what are the frame differences between the assorted replicas? One thing that I've often wondered about is the windshield. A repro P4 windshield must cost a fortune unless there are enough replicas around to bring down the cost. But I believe that all the replicas are being made in England, and therefore all the windshields (er...wind screens) are also made in England which would greatly increase the shipping costs for an already expensive piece of glass. Were any of those P4 replicas made in America? And what about the transaxle? What is the transaxle of choice among the V8 and V12 crowd? A decent transaxle that will handle the torque of a V8 is not something that you easily find at the local salvage yard. And since it IS a replica that will not be true to the original, we Americans must have our LEFT hand drive position. Is that easily accomplished? Is there a web site that outlines all the data on P4 replica history? I'm located in Arkansas by the way. (Home state of former President Bill Clinton, not that he's anything to brag about.)

 

Horsefly:

Not to interject un-necessarily in this discussion, but there is one "replica" that I don't see mentioned ...

http://perso.club-internet.fr/clcalvet/sbarro/P4/P4gb.html

hope that it comes up ...

Best wishes

 

Lots of questions there, Arlie ! And I do have all the answers for you, although the reply could get a bit 'lengthy'. As we are wandering a little off topic, shall we take this off-line, or do you want me to start a new thread ?
The subject of P4 replicas has come up a few times - could Rob please advise - do you have any plans to start a 'Ferrari replica posting area', or should I just start a new thread in 'Off Topic' ?

 

Dino.
Again, we are wandering slightly off topic. The Sbarro P4 has come up in a couple of earlier P4 threads. We can start a new thread on it if you like. I have all the details on the car on my P4 replica register, including the name of the current owner and the cars exact whereabouts. And it certainly isn't in Canada! See: http://www.exoticaronline.com/inventory/propview.php?view=119
I recently picked up an original Sbarro P4 brochure on eBay, which shows that Franco planned to build more of these cars, based on 328GTS, rather than the 308GTS. Never happened though. This is strictly a one-off. Shame.

By the way - love that photo of the girl draped over the car, scrawling 'Je t'aime' across the windscreen in lipstick. Must do that shot with my car sometime !

 

There should be a fifth choice in the poll - "wait & see".

Lee Noble, ex-mechanic racer, designed and built the original P4 kit, as well as a kitcar replica of the Lotus 23, the Ultima-Chevy, and other kits. He tended to sell his projects on, because his ultimate ambition was always to build production cars. He kept the P4 project longer than most, and re-launched it in about 1989 (I nearly bought one) but then sold it on to Tony Butler in Wales (from whom a friend of mine bought a body and is welding his own frame - will it be a Noble, a Butler or what?) but Tony fell ill and had to sell it on to Neil Foreman who still builds them. During the first period of Noble selling the P4 kits in the early 1980s, several were sold to the USA, and some people copied the distinctive body (different size to the real P4 and raised roofline) to start building 308 and 512BB-powered cars there.

Franco Sbarro did his own thing, I believe. He also did GT40 newbuilds which were very close to the original but not sanctioned in any way (IIRC Ray Mallock Ltd had the rights to "continue production" in the UK, and Holman & Moody in the USA), and allegedly the ch.nos. of two disappeared real GT40s found their way onto two of his and then one of the real cars resurfaced and there was a courtcase.

On the question of what constitutes originality, I don't believe the Corvette is an appropriate example. Another race car of limited numbers and great desirability would be better, such as the Maserati 250F Grand Prix car of 1954-1958. There are several in the UK and all are raced regularly and hard, and some have been with the same owner or family for 30 years plus. When they are raced, they don't usually use the original engine, or even an original engine from 1954-58, in case of damage, they usually use a modern Cyril Emburey reproduction; suspension and wheels have been renewed due to wear & tear, body shells have been damaged in crashes and patched so much they are like grandfather's broom, and sometimes large sections of chassis frame have had to be replaced due to irrepairable distortion - but they are still regarded as original cars.

The late Cameron Millar had many 250Fs pass through his hands (as with David Piper and Ferraris) for restoration and race-preparation, and acquired a huge number of original parts; eventually he built six replica frames and assembled six cars, but he gave them his own CM chassis numbers and they are not regarded as original cars, although some of them contain more original gearboxes, suspensions, fuel tanks, radiators or whatever than some of the cars with Maserati ch. nos.

Then IIRC there was a missing car that resurfaced from where it had been sold to South America after its useful life in frontline racing was over; although most of the original car had been lost or replaced, the large number of interested historians studied it carefully, tracked its history and accepted it, although it now has a remade body and mechanicals. The same thing has happened with a couple of 250TRs and a 555 Squalo F1.

Davis Piper has always been (a) a racer (b) a dealer; in the late 1950s and early 1960s he raced Lotus sports and F1 cars all over Europe, and established a good line in importing Italian cars into the UK to pay for his racing; he made many contacts in Italy and then started racing Ferraris because he could get better start money, and they were suited to the bigger races. He owned a couple of GTOs, was helped like all Ferrari privateers by the factory Assistienza department, modified his cars to keep them competitive, did some races for the Ferrari importer teams N.A.R.T. and Maranello Concessionaires, and did well enough that he was highly regarded by Enzo and sometimes drove for the factory. He kept buying and selling cars, and especially Ferrari race cars; he bought P2/3 0836 (which he still owns) in 1965, and 412P 0854 from Maranello Concessionaires at the end of 1967; and apart from the 275LM 8165 which he still owns, and 5897 that he had before that, many of the 275LMs have passed through his hands, I believe. P4 c/n 0858 passed through his hands with a huge collection of spares, which he kept, and with those plus what he acquired directly from Ferrari (enough for about two-and-a-half complete cars) he built 0900 in about 1980. He bought 365P c/n 0824 in 1990 or 1991, and somewhere along the line got a 1965 330P2 4-cam engine; his P2/3 had been a works car in early 1965 with a 4-cam engine but he bought it with the 'customer' 4.4L two-cam engine. In 1993 he fitted the 330P2 engine into 0836 because he wanted it to be the only P2 with a 4-cam engine; the spare 365P engine went into 0824 a couple of years ago and 0824's engine is now in another car, so that he seems to have two 0824s! I think he may also have a 206SP Dino with no known history. As was said, he has always been a bloke who runs racing cars, not a historian. However, in the UK we have a couple of pieces of legislation called the Sale of Goods Act and the Property Misrepresentation Act; if he sells a car he can't legally say anything about it that he can't prove, which is what he seems to have done with what he sold to Jim.

It seems there are certainly some duplicate ch.nos. in the 275LMs and 206SPs now, as a result of the crashing/rebuilding/partial or complete restoration, or even completely re-chassied cars whose old chassis then survives and is repaired (quite apart from the many rebodied GTO- and 250TR-styled 250GTs); but then lots of them were built, unlike the P3s and P4s.

(BTW, am I right in believing Lawrence Stroll's [owner of 0850 and 0856] real name is Strulovitch?)

And so to 0846. From the previous posts and pictures we know the engine is a P4 made by Ferrari in 1966-67 (unlike the 250GT/275LM engine, nobody has ever recast P4 engines as far as I know!) and the gearbox is a P3 made by Ferrari in 1966. The first point, therefore, is that it does not in any way compare with a car that has a 308 or 512 or Renault V6 or Lamborghini or Chevy engine, or a Porsche or Renault or Hewland gearbox of any period. As I have said about the Maserati 250F, the generally accepted criterion for authenticity, apart from having the correct type of engine/gearbox, is always the chassis frame, about which Jim is in consultation with Ferrari Spa and presumably with the recognised Ferrari historical experts who are involved with, for instance, 'Cavallino' magazine (they are relentless in seeking the truth) as well as those on this forum.

So let's be patient and see what transpires.

Paul M

 

Very interesting and well written post, Macca.

 

There are only 4 options to a poll thread, Paul. And besides - wait and see till when ? Monterey in August ? I get the impression that you are very much convinced that Jim's car IS #0846 already (whereas I am the opposite). I'll reply to some of your other statements (in the 'Gearbox' thread) later this weekend, when I've caught up with other email and stuff. I do have one posting up my sleeve, which will stop this arguement dead in it's tracks, but in the meantime, it's interesting to continue these discussions and hear other peoples opinions for and against .....

When Arlie (Horsefly) made that posting addressed to Paul, he meant me, I think. But thank you for jumping in there ! I had actually been waiting for a reply from Rob, as to whether to take Arlie's post off in another direction and start an 'Off Topic' thread.
There are several points you are incorrect on. The first P4 replica (after Piper's #0900, which is in another league, of course) was built in 1981 by Bob Norwood, in Dallas. It was based on a shortened LHD '74 365BB Boxer chassis and had fibreglass bodywork supplied by David Piper. The car was featured in Petersen's Sports Car Classics magazine #2, from 1982. This car was later bought to England (Talacrest had it for sale for a while in the '90's) and subsequently road registered (XBY 166F).
Next came the Sbarro P4, again, fibreglass bodied, based on a 308GTS built in 1986.

Lee built his first Noble P4 (based on a modified Ultima chassis) in '87 and from here things took off. Lee told me that he built or supplied kits numbering 124 in total. A claim which, at first, I suspected, as the highest Noble P4 chassis # I had ever come across was #086, but then again, there are lots of Noble P4 chassis (including my own) which were supplied without Noble chassis # plate, so that they could take their identity from the 'donor' car.
Lee didn't sell the project to Tony Butler. He actually sold it to John Hurst of JH Classics, who made the Deon (246GT Dino replica) and others. JH took on WAY too many projects and eventually went bankrupt - never actually building any P4's!
Tony Butler used to work for Lee Noble. He broke away and set up on his own, starting with some worn out Noble body moulds that 'should' have gone to the tip. Tony had previously modified a couple of customer Noble P4's, by taking out the PRV V-6 and installing Chevy V-8's. He realised that there were limitations to the Noble design, and implemented many changes, including: strengthening the chassis; raising the bodywork relative to the chassis frame, and changing the rear deck so it looked something like P2/3/4 #0828. Tony claims to have made 6 Butler P4's. I only know of the one complete car, and another Noble chassis with Butler bodywork (still an unfinished project) in Birmingham. So if you would kindly consider putting me in touch with your friend, so that I can add another record to my P4 replica register - I'd appreciate it (however the outcome of our debate turns out).
Tony subsequently sold his project to Neil Foreman, which Neil has much refined and added to, and continues to produce kits and turn-key cars. Incedentally, Tony Butler now lives a couple of miles down the road from me, in Broad Hinton, near Swindon, and is still a 'custodian' to one of his customer's modified Chevy V-8 powered Noble P4's.
The original Noble body moulds and chassis jigs are now owned by Jamie Stewart Motorsport of Honiton - he was one of the financial backers of JH Classics before they went bankrupt.
You also missed out a few other players such as Sienna Cars, who built up Lee's P4 kits into turn-key cars for export (particularly Japan), and the US importers like Richard Brengman (official importer SIAC); Jim Carpenter (Cable Productions - who produced Noble P4 clones, and scratch built other fibreglass-bodied P4's) and Bill Andrews (HRE MotorCars), who also imported a few kits (unofficially) and built up a couple of cars.
Oh Yes .... And Bob Norwood, who build a series of 10 or 11 aluminium-bodied Ferrari (mostly 365GT4 or 400GT based) V-12 powered cars. These were mostly built on a commission basis at an average cost of $350K ....

 

THEN WHY DON'T YOU POST IT AND END ALL OF THIS NONSENSE!

If you have conclusive proof that makes your point, post it, and put an end to this thread. I've been on the sidelines of this thing for the sixteen million posts that have already been made, and it's beyond crazy at this point.

Seems you are dead set on proving Jim's car is a replica, or doesn't have enough original parts, or whatever your reasoning is, so, lay your cards on the table, call their bluff, and win the hand.

Let's see those aces!!!

 

I would like to be able to prove the arguement (against the likelihood of Jim's car actually being #0846) in a logical and reasoned manner, rather than use some privelaged information, which by my posting, may upset some people.
So - In the words of Paul (Macca): So let's be patient and see what transpires.

 

B.S.

Post it or give it up. What "privledged information" could there be in the world of cars that would serve as irrefutable evidence. Some sneaky spy stuff? Please...

What a crock. You just like to incite and rabble rouse.

 

You seem to be a great little ****-stirrer and now you are worried about upsetting some people! LOL. Isn't that a little ridiculous. You already have stirred the hornets nest - look at this thread. So present your proof. I doubt you are going to win any popularity contests at this point anyway - so what do you care.

Post it - or go away and believe in your own convictions - vs. trying to convince others that you are right. You obviously came here to "prove" to the world that JG's car is not 0846. So prove it.

 

Oh well, we may as well carry on in this thread now, Arlie ....

Between Macca's post, and my reply to him, Arlie, we've mostly replied to this first section. Basically, as far as 'poor men's' P4 replicas go, you've got two choices; Noble (discontinued around 1996) and Foreman (current production). Depending whose numbers you believe, I reckon on a total maximum number of around 12-15 Noble P4's in the States. I haven't located them all yet, but only today, I made contact with an owner near Dallas, who is still building a Noble P4. Like the two Scottsdale cars - these things just keep on 'creeping out of the woodwork'! Then you've got the couple of Noble P4 'clones' built in Phoenix by Jim Carpenter. You can, of course still import a new Foreman P4 kit yourself - I think Neil has shipped 3 Stateside in the last 12 months.
See http://www.nfauto.co.uk for costs.

Both Nobles and Foremans use a square tube spaceframe, panelled in aluminium, that was based originally on the Ultima chassis. See Mark Collin's P4 build-up website: http://www.collinsclan.co.uk/Pages/Cars/P4/P4.html for photos of the chassis frame. The Noble frame is very similar, but in a slightly smaller tube size and lighter gauge.

To start with, the windscreen used in P4 replicas is a less complex moulding than a real P4's. Noble and Foreman P4's use a single curvature (but still very deep) windscreen. A real P4's windscreen is curved in BOTH planes - almost a quarter of a sphere. It is incredibly complex to mould accurately. If you've read any of the articles published in 2001, (I think it was also published in one of the US magazines - Vintage Motorsport?) where #0844 was first tested at Silverstone, by Tony Dron (after its restoration by Symbolic) - you may have noted his comments about the distortions caused by the less than perfect windscreen moulding.
Having said that, P4 replica windscreens are still not cheap. I think they retail at around 500 pounds. The problem is in shipping a replacement (standalone - as opposed to being included in a kit). That chap from Scottsdale bought one from Neil Foreman, just before he decided to sell his kit. With the special re-inforced shipping crate (with pre-shaped foam packaging) and airfreight, it cost him nearly 1000 pounds ($1700) ! Still, it pays to be over-cautious. When talking to the ex-US Noble P4 importer, Richard Brengman, last year, one of his main beefs with Lee, was the number of windscreens that used to arrive broken !

Only the mega-buck Norwood P4's and a couple of Noble-based cars by Jim Carpenter

Originally most Noble, Butler (and early Foreman) P4's used the Renault 25/30/UN1 transaxle, almost universally. It's very tough and can handle the output of a 350 HO Chevy V-8. The problem lies in the diameter of the bellhousing, which limits the diameter of clutch that you can use. Some owners have had larger diameter bellhousings fabricated. A few owners in the States built cars with the Porsche 915 transmission, but now the 'tranny of choice' is the Porsche G-50 5-speed. As used in the Norwood P4's and a good many of higher powered Foreman P4's. When Neil Foreman first converted Max's Noble from PRV V-6 to Lamborghini V-12, that had a G-50 transmission, although it now has a Hewland DG300.

 

Sorry Arlie - I seemed to have chopped off the last bit, while editing !

Ask Nick M! His car was originally a right hand drive (right hand gearchange) UK sourced Berlinetta - He bought it halfway through someone else's conversion to LHD Spyder !
Seriously though, several Nobles were built as LHD - both with LH and center gearchanges. It's no big deal - just depends how accurate you want your car to look and feel ..... and if you really like sitting on the wrong side ;o)

Not as yet, Arlie. But one day, I'll get round to uploading all the data I've ammassed to: http://www.p4replica.com , and as you can see, I'm already planning that section.

I'll see what I can 'dig up' in your state, Arlie, though nothing springs to mind immediately.
Yeh - and now you've got Dubya and we've got Tony B.Liar .....

 

P4Replica and Macca and others,
Thanks for the boatload of P4 replica info. I will print out your postings and ad them to my data file. It looks like I was correct with my concerns about the windshields. Expensive and prone to breakage. P4Replica, let me know if you run across any of the lower end P4 replicas for sale in the U.S. I think that they have a potential for alot of fun for a cheaper price, because the purists will always look down on them.
As for the ongoing debate on 0846, I find no harm in expressing doubts as to whether it "IS" 0846. I have expressed the same kind of doubts toward some local vintage Corvettes that were "restored" with non-original frames, non-original bodies, and other such nonsense. I know of one 1957 Corvette that was being restored. The frame was horribly rusty, so the shop doing the restoration advised the owner to have them locate another frame for the car. Later on during the restoration, the shop decided that it would be cheaper to replace the body with a repro than repair the old original fiberglass body. Well after you replace BOTH the frame AND the body, what do you have left of the original car? Nothing, because the engine was also missing from the start. What you end up with is a replica with paperwork that SAYS it is the real thing. But of course, it is far from it.

 

Arlie.
Windshields are NOT prone to breakage on the cars (unless badly fitted) and only in transit if improperly packaged.
Suggest you email (me through the website) Arlie. That way I can add your name and email address to the small list of people I have already looking for project cars. The chap from Mesa who just bought the Scottsdale Noble P4 project got lucky - he happened to email me at just the right time, and lived quite near to the seller. For those reasons, and his enthusiasm, I guess he jumped 'the queue'. Got himself a bargain too - for somewhat rather less than the $10K I had estimated !

 

That is amazing. But what about the paperwork that should have been attached to the 'other' frame? I would think that the "other" frame is more of the car that is now restored than the first one they were originally restoring in the first place. If the frame is the car. Oh boy. This gets extremely confusing.

Have a nice Memorial Day weekend gentleman.

Ed

 

This is the Carpenter/Cable Car P4, as shown in the article in "Sports Car International" February 1992.