The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It should be also known that the racing history of 0003 was documented by Piper and supplied to Jim stating as follows:

"This car has been in our possession continuously since 1974 and has been raced for one of our clients in various events around teh world including T&T Circuit Japan, Cape Town South Africa, Bahamas Freeport, and Goodwood Revival, Angouleme, France."


regarding the welds and John's comments, taken from Jim's document:

One day John Hajduk Jr., MetalKraft Noblesville,Indiana., the person who was fitting the
NOS Alloy Allegretti coupe body to my car called me and said: " I was reading a book about
P4s which talked about the 1967 TARGA Floria crash of 0846. You can see the result of
that crash and the repair to the original chassis tubes ." "See them? See them where?" I
asked. "In your chassis. You can also see where it was modified at different times by different
welders..." Another thing you could see was that the section that likely was
burned/destroyed in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a
different dimension and character by a different welder as well.
Sal Barone, who at the time was working for Wide World of Cars and is now working privately
for me, who was overseeing the entire restoration also mentioned that be believed
John was right and that he had noticed several things about my chassis which he believed
showed that it was a P3 chassis that had been modified to accept a P4 motor changing the
wheelbase from P3 to P4.

 

So the info is second hand then via Jim? and John Hajduk has never publicly made any statement about any repaired damage he found on the car?

The photos of the repaired damage would be good to see at this point in the thread to tie everything up, can anyone post them?

 

A person of John's experience and reputation I have no doubt would dissallow his name being attached to such published remarks directly quoting him had he not been agreeable.


The repair pics are buried in Jim's doc somewhere too.

 

The repair pictures in Jim's document simply show close up(s) of a damaged tube. Too close to be able to provide any context.

 

Thank you for clarfication, so are you saying there is no merit to what John Hajduk is identifying then?

 

I wonder if he is even aware he was quoted in Jims pdf? I imagine though Jim would have sought his approval before making the statement.

 

I fail to see the difference, tube replacement in that area strongly infers the said fire damage as I see no other reason for replacement. It's far too odd a set of circumstances to just be coincidence even if it were argued as just being circumstantial evidence. Just my opinion.

 

On page 100 I see a slightly dinged and warped chassis tube in b/w....

I havent seen pics that show the supposed Le Mans damage or show replaced tube sections.

 

Thats the part I read, thanks for digging it out. My interpretation is that the "P4 style chassis centre section" is reference to converting that part of the p3 replica chassis to accept a P4 engine ie "improvement" would indicate updating/upgrading not damage repair.

 

I clearly see what you're saying, but what are the chances that exact area where the Le Mans fire was would have been repaired on the replica, and the chances of the exact area the targa florio damages were to have been in the same place, on the same 'replica' chassis? It's the Kennedy magic bullet of Ferrari chassis really.

I suppose a clear race history of that chassis would be helpful, and you're right, a list of statements would be in order from a number of people, many of who are mentioned in Jim's document featuring statements I would think they would want to dispute if they were false, as Jim's claim and use of their names are substantial.

At best, this chassis is mostly 0846 with the said repairs taking place, and at worse this chassis is a complete replica. I believe the truth is somewhere between as I do believe with the evidence brought forward that at least some part of 0846 exists in the chassis in question, and 'authentic' cars have been made with less.

 

The evidence could certainly be presented more elegantly... we are shown a vague photograph and given a fairly complex explanation.

We are also told that frame sections have been replaced... confirmed by measurements with a micrometer. No detail... etc. A micrometer typically measures accurately to 0.001" (0.025mm). Do the tubes differ by millimeters? Tenths? Hundredths? We are just told that they differ when measured with a micrometer.

I've said it before: there is too much obfuscation... vague and poorly presented evidence... and flat out irrelevant information.

 

This is where the Piper legend is getting further distorted. Piper, by his own admission I'm sure, is not a Ferrari historian he is a guy that has great knowledge on running a LM and P3's and his P4 but it would not surprise me one bit that he has little knowledge or interest in the various chassis number of the prototype Ferraris.

He is a racer and his knowledge is in how to maintain and run these cars, not how to restore them as #0858's P4 conversion clearly shows.

So let's please acknowledge where his legend starts and finishes
Pete

 

I do not see any reason why a tube would be replace because of a fire. To damage a chassis tube you need a lot hotter fire ... ask a gas welder and #0846's fire was not that intense because 3/4's of the bodywork remained in perfect condition. It was a localised fire due to a blown tyre flapping, etc.

When #0854 burnt to the ground during Piper's ownership the chassis was not damaged one bit. Now that was a fire!

I've always discounted these comments and concentrated on the Targa Floria accident repairs.
Pete

 

He would have known that 0846 started life as a P3 before being upgraded to P4 spec by Ferrari, I am certain of that, as it was so unique in that respect, its not like there were many p cars to begin with.

 

Maybe, but back then I'm not so sure.

Piper is not remotely interested in history he is interested in racing. When I was club racing, I could not tell you what engine was used in each chassis, gearbox, etc. I could not care less.

We are assuming that Piper read books on Ferraris. Why would he, he had his own small collection of P cars to play with. Instead I see a man out in his shed consumed by the cars he had, preparing them for their next outing.

Saying that he did label the car as #0846 on the dash with a sticker ...
Pete

 

A good salesman can suggest something without explicitly saying it, and let the buyer draw their own conclusions.

 

Are you suggesting Mr Piper is a snake oil salesman and Jim fell for it.

I very much doubt one is that good, and the other that naive.

 

Still doesn't really answer the question. You're in essence suggesting my question holds no validity as I have no direct knowledge of the damage from Le Mans nor the targa. I don't believe direct knowledge is required if those who were there have already commented with I believe good clarity on the matter.

 

Although I don't know Jim, I would think he would comment on such inferences at least in the form of a footnote. As Jim outlined in his document, he was certain he was buying a replica until John brought up the new chassis members and repairs from his readings into the history of 0846

 

Pretty certain it was the obsolete engine mounts for the P3 spec engine that first caught his experts eye when viewing the car for the first time when Piper had it for sale, the rest of the other elements were found later on after purchase