The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

And this is the problem I have. The 0846 file is updated with "new information" (e.g., Tom Meade's deathbed confession). But, when the iteration process takes place, the information is not changed or removed. The document is full of information that has been shown to be dubious, irrelevant, wrong, questionable, etc. This fact has altered my view of "the situation."

I suggest that one cannot look at the 0846 file and come to the conclusion that it is a search for the truth.

Unfortunately, when compared to this thread, the 0846 file is succinct. Most humans want it easy...the average person will never take the time to discover all the nuances and twists that happen over time to give us the accumulated accuracy of the iteration process.

 

But, the only car that ran at Daytona as a spyder was 0846, unless that's what you are referring to.

 

I think when Sparling was shown "0846" some years back it was then still wearing the Allegretti Berlinetta body?! So he confused it with 0856 driven by Scarfotti and that was the car that had the minor accident back then. The original 0846 was the only P spyder at Daytona, thats correct. Of course today "0846" and 0856 are both spyders today - 0856 was converted for Brands Hatch and has remained in that configuration.

 

Yes Piloti that makes sense.
Pete

 

BTW: It is now a week since I sent an email hopefully to Kerry Adams. Either he is choosing not to answer, away or I've got the address wrong.

I was informed that his business is now called Kendle Adams Motorsport and found this site address http://www.kendleadamsmotorsport.co.uk from Companies In The UK but that site took me to 5twenty4.co.uk so I used [email protected] as the email address ...
Pete

 

I think the one point that is being overlooked in the Sparling story is that he was talking about repairs in the chassis, not the body. Specifically that he saw the repairs he made in the tubing of the chassis that he recognizes as repairs that he made in the past.

As far as the spyder thing goes. If he remembers the repairs being made to a Spyder at Daytona, regardless if he knew the chassis number or not, he would have to be speaking of 0846 as that would be the only spyder he could have repaired at Daytona.

 

Thanks for the clarification El Wayne.

Still doesn't explain why he stated that he noticed his prior repairs in Jim's chassis.

The repairs to 0856 were to the body if I'm not mistaken, not the chassis.

Just goes to show you that even the experts mis-speak and all information needs cross examination before any of it can be accepted as fact.

Is it confirmed that Nye mis-spoke?

I feel that the deeper this whole is dug, more and more incorrect, as well as correct information will be revealed from both sides of the coin.

Hopefully one day what actually happened truthfully in history will come out through examination.

 

ENOUGH SAID GUYS!!

no need to go in circles and repeat things, I think everyone's over this subject (well I for was never involved) but good luck to Jim and God Bless him that's all there is to say.

Now I want more pictures of that car cause it is one awesome looking paintwork in motion.

 

George you are in the wrong thread, go here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/441804-place-enjoy-jims-p3-4-a.html
Pete

 

When these events were (or were not!) taking place, the drivers and mechanics were concentrating on racing and in the heat of battle had little time or interest in the arcane detail of their steeds, so it is hardly surprising that their recollections of events 35 years ago do not always bear the closest scrutiny.

In many cases these guys can shine a light on otherwise little known events but if their memories sometimes err, it is understandable and not necessarily due to any malevolence or conspiracy.

While the manufacturers should have records, the emphasis is on should. Who of us today writes up a report when the panic has passed and erroneously omits or misrepresents a detail?

The good historian constantly cross checks sources whenever he can and retains a healthy scepticism and willingness to revise in the face of proof.

 

Try contacting Sam Kendle E Mail [email protected] Im sure he will put you in contact with kerry Adams.

 

I agree as the document produced by the owner relies heavily on third party opinion and has very little photographic evidence on the all important chassis. There is only one picture of the repaired tubing on the left which is claimed to be a result of curb damage to the right. It is stated that the right hand tubing was destroyed in the fire and replaced and this is where the original curb damage would have been most evident.

My unanswered question is not on what people say but on what we see. Would curb impact on the right twist the chassis and damage this particular tube on the left ?

Please remember it was this feature, spotted by John Hadjuk Jr, that started this story. We all appreciate what JG has done and personally I would like the resurrection of chassis 0846 to be proved correct. However, having read the document, I feel that making this claim based on the evidence published so far is somewhat premature.

 

Most likely not. Look... how the assumption that 003 has traces of the TF accident in its chassis came to be follows a pretty clear pattern:

1) Sparling looks at 003 dressed as Berlinetta and claims he made repairs to it 35 years ago

2) The original 0846 had no known accidents prior to the TF and then Le Mans

3) conclusion was made that the slightly bent tubes in 003s chassis has to be repaired TF crash damage

Of course its pretty easy to see that there are some severe problems with this explanation.

 

^ My problem with the whole thing is that there is unexplained damage to the frame.

My other problem is that is is quite clear that witnesses, historians, and Ferrari all have inaccurracies in their stories when it comes to 0846. Whose to say that if one part of their research is wrong that all of their research isn't wrong. This is why I believe everything requires closer examination.

Ferrari believed 0856 to be the Spyder at Daytona for a decent amount of time.

I'm guessing this is why some historians believed 0856 to be the Spyder at Daytona for quite some time. These truths are built upon other truths. If the original truth is not accurate this has a snowball effect down the line.

-Whose to say Wayne wasn't at the Targa Florio? Wayne himself? If so, why do people believe that part of his story but not the part about him seeing his work in his chassis? Is this a matter of convenience or actual in depth examination?

-Why is Daytona not relevant to this discusssion? The damage had to happen somewhere, could very well have been at Daytona? There was only one reported crash you say. Well, I believe, Ferrari reported that 0846 was a Berlinetta and 0856 was a Spyder.

Inconsistencies lead me to believe that all of this needs to be questioned and requires further examination.

What we do know is that 0003 or 0846 displays evidence of damage and repair. This had to happen somewhere, somehow, we do not know where and how yet, in other words it could have happened anyway, anywhere : A tire flapping at LeMans, a impact to the right rear wheel at Targa Florio, a crash at daytona, a crash by Piper while grabbing groceries.

What we do know is that there is damage present and it had to happen somehow, somewhere.

Until the innacuracies in history are figured out there are no possibilities that aren't possibilities, as I don't believe what has been reported in the past is 100% accurate on both sides of the coin.

 

Problem with that is he points out his repairs. Saying these repairs are the ones I made. He is not looking at the body, he is looking at the actual repair and saying I did that. The 0856 repair was on the body. The 0846 repair was to the chassis. Two COMPLETELY different type of repairs. From what has been relayed, if accurate, it is him clearly looking at the tubing repair and saying I did that.

I don't know if we can say that any conclusions that have been made are entirely conclusive as of yet.

I believe that is a possibility. I would also believe that John Hadjuk would have a better idea of crash damage then me.

I think it would all come down to where the energy of the crash ended up and was most powerful. As it wasn't hit on the right side the damage does not neccessarilly have to be on the right side. From what I have gathered, It was hit on the right wheel, which could very well transmit that energy through the frame. I would guess that the suspension arms/axles were damage and replaced. But if the the flex of the frame ended up mostly on the left side from this it is understandable that this is where it would bend. This is just speculation and the accident needs to be studied by someone more qualified then me. I'm not saying that it happened that way, but I wouldn't rule it out until someone qualified studied the actual accident and it's believed effects on the chassis.

 

A ridiculous statement! Do you apply the same reasoning to the 0846 PDF?
Nathan

 

Wrong! The Ferrari race book from 1967, which I have personally seen, show the Daytona winner as 0846.
Nathan

 

Yes - haven't you read Post 8475?
Nathan

 

Wrong - see 8504
Nathan

 

1) He didn't repair 0846 at the Targa Florio - he wasn't there
2) 0846 didn't crash at Daytona - so he didn't repair it there
So what damage did he repair on 0846?
Or was he simply mixing one car up with another, more than 37 years later?
Nathan

 

Yes. I think it all has to be examined. I would have to think there are many things to be clarified and examined in the document.

If it is a ridiculous statement then why did you agree to it when it was stated before???

Was Ferrari not wrong about 0856 and 0846's identity at Daytona?

Was Doug Nye also not wrong about the same?

Did you not just say this??? (see below) Are you still of the belief that mistakes in history aren't made? Even in recent history that you just stated????

Cause here you are conflicting two statements that you have made recently.

To clarify, when I am speaking of Identity I am speaking of it's body. Maybe that is where the confusion is coming from.

Yes.

I have trouble with he once said something in front of a group of people and now he says something different from, as the banned user would point out, from heresay.

Reminds me of a Mob witness that was ready to spill the beans but forgets everything when they hit the courtroom.

As far as the rest of your posts I will get to them later as I have a full day in front of me.

 

We can conclude that this story.....

....needs to revised...slightly.

 

Can I point something out: where, in that story, does it say that he repaired it AT the Targa Florio? Why couldn't he have repaired it when it got back to the factory?

 

No, Ferrari were right. You're wrong. Did you not read posts 8504 & 8506?
Nathan