The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It was the engine mods, (larger displacement) as well as the physical appearance, of 0858, that led to Ferrari's OFFICIAL position (before it was auctioned) on it's "as last raced by Ferrari" provenance, and IMO, Jim's comments.

They were aligned.

The fact that the market demand and $$$$ value led to it being rebuilt as P4, instead of refurbished as a 350 Can Am, just shows the flow of energy, and money, in the deal....

 

Dude, if you would read some older books, you would know the missing frame fabricator you are trying to name is GILCO!!!!!!

Why would you ask about the different mounting positions??

The two different engines have different ENGINE BLOCKS!!!!
Aaaaaaaargh!

Your lack of knowledge, and the fact you would badger Mr. and Mrs. Piper at home is mind boggling.

I don't call Richard Starkey and ask him how to tweak a Ludwig!!!!
He's BUSY!

The simple fact remains, that you can NOT build a P3 frame, from a set of P4 blueprints.
Remember that part???

 

+1, And this movie feels like it went on for longer than the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

As you say, if the chassis were painted then it wouldn't have been obvious and considering the state of the classic car market in the early 1970s, likely wouldn't have mattered. I love the conversation that Steve had with Pipes, where according to Steve, Pipes said he sold a replica but then Steve tosses in the almost throwaway line that Pipes doesn't, want to?, remember who fitted the engine mounts and couldn't or wouldn't say who built the chassis. What's up with that, why the mystery?

I for one would love to know

 

I would think that MF has verified enough for you, he doesn't owe you any further explanations, and you have a hell of a lot of nerve pestering him even further because you don't like that he actually did confirm that Jim's P4 is built on the frame that won Daytona 67 and was formerly numbered as 0846. Honestly, I very much doubt any claim you'd make of altruistic motive for finding out more about what MF saw that confirmed Jim's P4 is the car formerly numbered as 0846 - you're just desperate now for anything to re-cast the doubt that MF dispelled.

Was it a certain English gentleman racer who asked permission from Ferrari to build ONE replica P4 frame, received permission from Ferrari for ONE replica P4 frame, and then proceeded to order THREE replica P4 frames? That paragon of honesty and virtue gentleman racer who's statements now should never be doubted? Maybe there's another reason that he doesn't want to talk about it anymore? Maybe he's pissed that he thought he was pulling one over on Ferrari, but got two replica frames and one recycled junk frame instead of three replica frames, then missed that the recycled junk frame was remnants of 0846, and now doesn't want to talk about how a sneaky three for one deal backfired and he let a genuine provenance frame slip through his hands?

(Not that I'm insinuating anything, just like Steve isn't insinuating anything by asking leading questions about signatures, letter authors, etc)

Steve, do you also find it ironic that you attack Jim for not answering direct questions here, yet you refuse to answer and ignore simple direct questions about the authenticity verified by MF in the letters you posted here?

 

I have no question regarding both examples, I have questions regarding the people who defend/attack both examples.

 

Steve

You repeat "Good for Mr Glickenhaus that Mauro Forghieri has been manipulated into believing what he has stated."

Dont you reject this option by the wife of DP over MF? Didn't you accept MF expertise and word? Rolling through your defense of him when it appeared he completely supported your position. Didn't you say that MF's character was unassailable and his option the final word? If we scroll through this thread your clearly state that MF could not be manipulated in his opinion on this chassis. Now do you except the wife of DP?

I'd refer you to my long posts previously. If you now reject the authority of what you previously relied upon, then you unmask yourself as not trustworthy, consistent or honest in your opinions. If you now reject MF as being manipulated and his opinion he has expressed many times as false, it proves that you will spin whatever evidence you can find to fit your conclusion. This is VERY dangerous to your reputation as ANYONE relying upon your advice on a purchase can know that you will spin evidence to prove what you like.

And Steve, this has nothing to do with whether MF is correct or not. Many people thought it's completely illegitimate to double down on MF opinion and memory. Yet you did over and over again to throw rocks at Jim. Now that MF has given the clear opinion that part of the chassis is original, you now throw rocks at MF's opinion as being tainted by manipulation. It's not the quality of the evidence, it's how you use it. And it appears now your professional reputation is such that you will abandon principles you set to come to the conclusion you want. Very telling.

 

It's actually your continued questioning of my honesty and integrity that's very telling. You have put no questions forward to Mr Glickenhaus regarding untrue statements he has made regarding what MF has actually said as well as his disgusting attack regarding MF's memory.

 

Still ignoring direct questions asked of you, Steve?

Try this one - speaking of disgusting attacks regarding MF's memory - do you accept MF's confirmation that Jim's car has the chassis of the Daytona 67 winner, the chassis that was formerly known as 0846, as confirmed by MF?

That's a YES or NO question.

Or, will you stick with your disgusting statement regarding MF with your suggestion that he has been manipulated by Jim into believing that the chassis is the same one formerly known as 0846?

You don't get it both ways. Please answer.

Also ironic, again, that you accuse Jim of piecing together portions of MF statements to create a lie, yet YOU did exactly the same thing when you wrote:

Very selective, leaving out the part of MF's statement where he writes explicitly that Jim's car has the chassis of the 67 Daytona-winning P4, but qualifies that it can't be called 0846 any more because that number was stricken from the records when they scrapped the chassis. That's an extremely important statement of MF's that YOU deliberately excluded to create a false impression, isn't it?

You are really getting pathetic with your obsessive hatred of JG and your attempts, now desperate, to discredit the car formerly known as 0846.

 

Would be nice to see that answer, but it won't come. Like I said before, some people will find any excuse to support their point. Thus the equally "disgusting" insinuation that MF has a limited grasp of the English language, as soon as that language was used to convey the point that did not make him comfortable. Once you've dug that deep, better to try and see if you come out the other side. Similar behaviour to those who believe Reynolds Wrap is headwear.

 

I've done nothing of the sort and excluded nothing. Talking of false impressions which you brought up, what have you and John got to say about the following when Glickenhaus lied that MF said "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari."?

 

I quoted you directly - you deliberately omitted MF's statement that JG's car is the Daytona winning P4. Hard to deny, when it's right there in bald faced print, your deliberate omission glaring in it's absence and intent to mislead.

How about you first answer this direct question, which you have avoided over and over - do you accept that JG's P4 is built on the chassis that won Daytona 1967 that was formerly known as 0846, as confirmed by MF?

Yes or no? Really simple. Have a go.

You insist that MF's statements are truthful and correct, and have posted documents clarifying and confirming what was stated in other documents. Time to man up and commit - do you accept MF's statements, or are YOU making the disgusting statements that MF was mistaken, can't remember correctly, was mislead by Jim, etc?

 

First, you don't get to get out from being inconsistent because the other guy is. Don't you realize Steve you make it worse for yourself by avoid it, admitting it, and then failing to address it? (The it being that YOUR standard of proof determines there are original sections to the chassis). Second I don't know that Mr. G is being inconsitant. Maybe he does not believe in the infallibility of MF's memory then or now. It could be that he merely hoisted you upon your own petard. I would be willing to guess Mr. G still believes MG is wrong about the back of the chassis and doesn't entirely rely upon MF'S memory. And third, I am not debating that Mr. G has a bias. It's his car for goodness sake!!! There is no reason he's disinterested!!

I am merely following your professions that you are disinterested. That you come from an unbiased neutral place and you and providing an "expert." Opinion. You've proven that you have a vested interest in proving the car does not contain part of the original chassis. You've are dangerously close to turning this thread into a permanent demonstration that you have no scruples whatsoever. You doubled down on the infallibility of MF expert opinion.

The moment MF, your inflatable proof, declared part of the chassis was original, you tried everything you can to impeach MF's opinion. 1) he was in error, 2) he didn't understand English, 3) you can't accept the option until you know upon what MF relies, 4) now Piper's wife says he's been manipulated. You first admitted that you adopted MF's opinion but then backed away from it. If you continue in this way you will prove You are not worthy of listening to regarding an expert historical opinion.

I don't know what you profess to do for a living but if it has anything to do with you giving expert historical opinions I'd be careful. You might be part right (and/or part wrong) about this car and Jim may be part right (and/or part wrong.).

But this thread has turned to focus on the integrity of your MF crusade. Whether you are right or wrong about the car has less impact on your integrity (or to the extend you hold yourself out as an expert) than whether you are considered honest. and unbiased. If you continue down this path anyone listening to you to document a car could read this thread as a warning that you are intellectually dishonest. And this thread will forever be a record of this. You really had a chance to prove your integrity and you are blowing it.

(Yes you too are being trolled and baited by some to think that any concession you make that follows from your standard is the worst thing you could do. And BTW, you are taking the bait).

 

Hi, I would be pleased to thank you for yur magic site, were we may find a way to pic out a car!
But seriously you wish to give to Ferrari this "power of absolution"?
They sell the winning cars or dismounted them, cut, change and go in and out of the scrapyard when he need someting...for me they had no idea of the #number of what they scrap and may be the #tag was only for this purpose only....Now money had take the Legend away..I prefear times when you say "Listen!This sound came from a Ferrari!"
As you know Ferrari and Mr.J.G. are in a quarrel from many years (Mr.J.G. Ferrari was painted black and without the "prancing horse" when it win class at Nurburgring) so if they have to spent a word will be negative for sure!!!
All the best,
Alessandro

 

All you need do is look at David Piper's record of some 50 years of competiion driving including many races in Ferrari 250 GTOs and P series machines. This will tell you much of what you need to know. tonga's crew

 

Some interesting points being made in this post,... many worth noting.

It is very clear to most that read these posts that rational thinking is being superseded by a "brokers" ego.

 

Documentation used by Ing. Forghieri.
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Steve,

These photos are of the aft portion of the chassis. So what is it that Forghieri used as reference material to for the forward area of the chassis?

Jeff

 

I have no idea, Jeff. He sent me these that he'd seen but no other pictures and didn't say if he'd seen any other documentation. I have asked him exactly what it is on the front end that he's seen that identifies Jim's chassis as the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona winner but no reply yet.

 

So ignoring the cr@p and referring to this post: Based on the supplied documents Ing. Forghieri has clarified his findings to date regarding Mr Glickenhaus's chassis, the only thing I'm wondering is if Jim will correct the rear of the chassis to how it was when it was raced by Ferrari as a P4.
Pete

 

The letter dated the 14th March, 2016 by MF has been added to the wikipedia Ferrari P page. As this does not give the whole story, I added the more detailed document dated 22nd February, 2016 by MF. Somebody keeps removing this very valid and more informative document and then the following information is added:

"The legal identity of this car was further confirmed on March 31st 2016 by the official organizers of The Anniversary of The 100Th Targa Floiro sanctioned by The Italian Government as "1967 FERRARI P3/P4 chassis n. 0846"

 

seems: fantastic *ghost* writer out there hidden behind the bushes. cheers. clemente

 

just for the record. actual wikipedia ghost. no critics. cheers. clemente

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P

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330 P3[edit]

The 1966 330 P3 introduced fuel injection to the Ferrari stable. It also used a P3 (Type 593) transmission that was prone to failure and was replaced by a ZF transmission when P3 0844 and 0848 were converted to 412 P's, another Ferrari first that would only last one season when the ZFs were replaced by 603 P4 transmissions in all the 412 P's.

There are no longer any Ferrari P3s existent as original P3 0846 was converted to a P3/4 and P3s 0844 and 0848 were converted to 412 P's by Ferrari.
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330 P3/4 and P4

1967 was a banner year for the Enzo Ferrari motor company, as it saw the production of the mid-engined 330 P4,[6] a renowned V12 endurance car meant to replace the previous year's P3. Only four Ferrari P4-engined cars were ever made: one P3/4 and three 330 P4s. Their three-valve cylinder head was modeled after those of Italian Grand Prix-winning Formula One cars. To this was added the same fuel injection system from the P3 for an output of up to 450 hp (335 kW).

The P3 won the 1000 km Monza in 1966, and the P4 won the same race in 1967. The P3/4, one of the P4s, and one 412 P electrified the racing world when they crossed the finish line together (in first 0846, second 0856, and third place 0844) in the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona, for a photo finish to counter Ford's photo of the Ford GT40 Mk.II crossing the finish line together First, Second, and Third at the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Since then, the fate of the these four nearly legendary cars has been the subject of much attention. All of the P4s built are accounted for.

By chassis number:

Ferrari 330 P3/4 Chassis no 0846 owned by James Glickenhaus

• 0846 (the only P3/4) was originally built early in 1966 as a P3 by Ferrari. It was modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine, P4 front hanging pedal box structure and its wheelbase was decreased P3 2412mm to P4 2400mm.[7] It retained its P3 nose, was fitted fitted with a 12mm shorter P4 tail to center its rear wheel in the shortened wheelbase, and retained it's front and rear modified P3 chassis including its vestigial P3 engine mounts becoming a P 3/4. This vehicle was damaged in an accident at Le Mans and was discarded by Ferrari.[8]

Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including its original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate.

Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid-seventies from factory P4 chassis blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, directly from Enzo Ferrari, in the early seventies, Ferrari P3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari factory scrap yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it, unbeknownst to David Piper, who thought the original chassis maker was making three new P4 chassis from the original P4 chassis blueprints Enzo Ferrari gave to him.

This dovetails with Mauro Forghieri's written statement that 0846's original chassis was scrapped not destroyed and that "the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari. 0846's original P3/4 chassis is different from, and can not be made from P4 blueprints.[9] Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10]

This discovery has stirred debate. The Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 chassis modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutinizing marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. P3/4 0846 was road tested by Car and Driver magazine.[11]

Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site (in the owners section) that in Ferrari S.p.A's sole discretion Ferrari P3/4 Chassis 0846 has been owned by James Glickenhaus since July 2000, when he bought it from David Piper. The legal identity of this particular car that James Glickenhaus has owned since July 2000 as published by Ferrari S.p.A. on their copyrighted web site was established when James Glickenhaus informed Ferrari S.p.A. that he was registering this car as 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 Chassis 0846 with US Motor Vehicle Authorities in 2000 and if Ferrari believed this was not true that they had the duty to act within a two year period which they did not. "The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, "estoppel by laches". After the 2014 Amelia Island Concours, noted Ferrari Historian Keith Bluemel clearly reported in Cavallino magazine that Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 owned by Jim Glickenhaus attended that Concours.[12]

In the Official Ferrari Publication Magazine #9 there's an article on Glickenhaus's 512S Modulo, his 330 P3/4 0846 "The Ferrari P 3/4" and Flavio Manzoni the new head of Ferrari Design featuring a photo of Glickenhaus's Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that he sent to Ferrari as restored by Glickenhaus as a coupé before he restored her as a Spyder.

Every year continuously from 2004 to date, officially authorized Ferrari dealer "Wide World of Cars" has inspected Glickenhaus' 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and certified to NYS DMV that is in fact 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 and safe for operation on public roads under NYS DMV law.

This is the same officially authorized Ferrari dealer who arranged for Ferrari S.p.A. to inspect this car in NY which resulted in Ferrari S.p.A. manufacturing P4 parts that Glickenhaus used in the restoration of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846. In 2015 France's TF1 covered the 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis as it exists today for a Television special. In 2015 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 was invited to The Greenwich Concours d'Élegance.

On March 14th 2016 Mauro Forghieri Confirmed in writing, in front of witnesses and on video that the chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the original P3/P4 Chassis of the car that won The 1967 24 Hours of Daytona.

http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mauro0846.pdf

The legal identity of this car was further confirmed on March 31st 2016 by the official organizers of The Anniversary of The 100Th Targa Floiro sanctioned by The Italian Government as "1967 FERRARI P3/P4 chassis n. 0846"

• 0856 remains in its original state and is owned by Lawrence Stroll
• 0858 was converted into a 350 Can-Am by Ferrari but is now fitted with a replica P4 Coupe body.
• 0860 was also converted by Ferrari to a 350 Can-Am but is presently wearing a replica P4 Spyder body and is in a French automobile museum

The Ferrari 330 P4 made a notable appearance in the video game Forza Motorsport 2. The P4 in Forza Motorsport 3 is patterned on P3/4 0846 which James Glickenhaus made available to Microsoft and James Glickenhaus is credited by Microsoft in Forza Motorsport for making his P3/4 0846 available to them for this purpose.

The P4 also appears in the video game Gran Turismo 5, as one of the most expensive 20 million classics on the game.

P4 Replicas

Due to the great fame and sleek appearance of the original design, more than a hundred P4 replicas of various design have been built. A high-quality P4 replica built with genuine Ferrari engine (e.g., a 400i V12) may command as much as $200,000, but simpler ones (often with Rover engines and Renault drive-trains) fetch around $50,000.

There have also been replica chassis built:
• 0900 was a continuation commissioned and currently owned by David Piper
• 0900a is another currently unfinished continuation also owned by Piper
• 0900b is a third continuation, but is still under construction. Its frame was made in the 2000s by Piper for an American customer.

 

Wikipedia is written by whoever wants to contribute. It's just about the worst source there is for anything that is disputed.

 

...and the information regarding 0846 in Wikipedia demonstrates that perfectly. So much bull.... .

 

From the wikipedia page: "The legal identity of this car was further confirmed on March 31st 2016 by the official organizers of The Anniversary of The 100Th Targa Floiro sanctioned by The Italian Government as "1967 FERRARI P3/P4 chassis n. 0846"



I wonder if the ACI/Official Organisers of the Anniversary of the 100th Targa Florio have seen the MF document containing the binding Italian wording dated 23rd February, 2016?