The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Gearbox and one or both heads have Le Mans seal stampings ... if I remember correctly.
Pete

 

No proof at all the heads or gearbox are from 0846. The Z5Z stamping on the gearbox is to indicate Magnesium/Zirconium. Not a Le Mans seal stamping at all. See here: https://trademarks.justia.com/716/14/z5z-71614354.html

There isn't even a tipo 593 stamping on the gearbox Jim claims is a P3 gearbox.

Pic is from Jim's 0846 pdf.
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David Piper gave Jim his first big chance. When he starts to show some respect for D.P. who is a giant in the history of Ferrari and European road racing, he will greatly improve his image. tonga's crew

 

When did giant and opportunist become the same?

Piper made his life as a name/racer and that is deeply enviable from a "what would be your dream job" question, but the rest is just business and from day 1 it was intended to be a moneymaker with zero regard for Hx or originality. There is respect in there somewhere but not for intentionally muddying the waters for personal gain. Then or now.

 

How so?

 

Ok , just for a start , where did Napolis get 0846 from? From David Piper. Now take several weeks an go through the thousands of F Chat posts by Napolis on the subject of the P 3,P4 & P3/4 Ferraris and David Piper Then you decide who is the real authority and the most experienced over the many years with these magnificent machines.Frankly I would Sal near the top when it come to restorations. But David Piper has done it all going back to his secret meeting with Enzo Ferrari some 50 years ago to today. No one knows every aspect of these cars better than David Piper but for what ever reason Glickenhaus has decided to bad mouth him at every turn.Do the home work and you will understand. tonga's crew

 

Setting up and racing old Ferrari's is Piper's expertise.

Frankly, the fact that he thought he sold JG a replica and given the mediocre job he and his team did on 0858 proves that preserving Ferrari history, being an 'authority' on P cars and exacting restorations are clearly NOT. Hard to claim that you are getting people started when you are flogging them what you believe are replica's.

 

While Tonga's crew is more than capable of arguing David Piper's credentials. I am not sure that your understanding of the man or his business practices are that valid.

First. the two GTOs and 2 LMs he purhased in thr early 60s were new cars - not just old Ferraris. He modified them to improve their performance and often beat much better funded competitors and later moved on to various P cars, These cars were, as far as I know, worked on almost exclusivey by Piper and his long term mechanic, Fax Dunn.

Like a lot of racers of the time, he did a bit of trading butit was always secondary to his racing.

A lot of unpleasant things were said during the reconstruction of 0856 but I am not sure I have seen that he actually carried out the work on behalf of Talacrest or merely provided advice. I do know that others were pretty fed up that the CanAm car was lost but no one seemed willing to pay the asking price - apart from Talacrest or their client.

Lastly, as David Piper has not commented publicly on his view of the provenance of 0846, it is just speculation to say that he did not know what he was doing.

 

The Ferrari's he knows best are now old, hence OLD Ferrari racing being his particular field of expertise.

As far as 0858 is concerned the final result speaks volumes as did the build. Guided by Piper's hand or advice it was a trainwreck from start to finish.

In terms of 0846, the man that bought the car from Piper has stated on numerous occasions what Piper thought he was selling. That is not speculation at all. That is fact.

 

Not sure that stating a difference of opinion is bad mouthing someone.....

 

Jim lying on the 11th of May about the engine mountings on his chassis.
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You dismiss the abilities of David Piper, a man who has been in the thick of it with these cars from day one right up to the present time as if you have also been the same.

Why not enlighten us as to your actual first hand knowledge and experience on the cars, had you inspected 003 prior to Jims buying it? or in fact have you viewed any of David Pipers cars?.

Again 0858, did you physically see the car in its Can Am spec?, did you actually see it after the Talacrest conversion back to a P4?. have you seen it since?

Or like most of us are you just an armchair critic? reading snippets on the internet and looking at photos?

0858 is hardly a train wreck, its been on display at prestigious events since reverting back to a P4 and has changed hands for multi millions of pounds.

 

And has since, or is presently, been/being rebodied again because the first P4 attempt was not even close in not just my opinion but the purchaser also.

Pete

 

Did you feel the need to visit the site of the Titanic's final resting place to know that a disaster happened?

 

Exactly.

Also, the people with little to vast knowledge of these cars who took issue with the level of work on 0858 doesn't stop with the owner either. It's never flattering when a 'restorer' and 'experts' work has to be undone/fixed so quickly after completion..

 

a fortune

You need to take another look at David Piper.Yes you can say he ran things as a business. As far as I know anything he made as a "profit" went right back into his business operation Go back 50 years before his "Ferrari days". I don't know if he ever inherited a fortune. But call it what you like he has made a business over the many years of buying, selling,racing modifying maintaining etc. etc. a wide variety of competition cars but particularly Ferraris. Sure, to some he is controversial.His history,particularly with the Ferrari 250 GTO and the P series machines is one of the most fascinating stories in the history of Ferrari and European motor racing.Enjoy. tonga's crew

 

I take your reply as confirmation you have no first hand knowledge of any of these cars then, an armchair expert no less.

 

Your belief is based on what facts? or just simple guesses and some photos? do you know the present owner? is he on record as stating such?

 

Read the 0858 thread, which is where this conversation belongs, and perhaps you'll find the answers you are looking for.

 

I contributed to that thread, no answers there just lots of people second guessing as usual, not one of them had actually viewed the conversion of 0858 back to p4 spec.

It seems the same people who say a car like 0858 with continuous history can no longer be a P4 when the vast majority of its original parts are still present, but another one that may, just may have a few metal tubes from a scrapped one in its front end, and thats all, is 100% the real deal, huge double standards.

 

You can take my reply any way you like.

The Titanic was a disaster and so was what happened to 0858. Surely you would need first hand knowledge of posters here before you accuse anyone of 'armchair expert analysis?

 

The difference is very clear and not a double standard whatsoever.

One car was a piece of surviving history that was ripped apart and a good portion of that surviving history ceased to exist for profit.

The other was a car that was lost to history and was built back as best as possible to preserve history as best as could be.

Or in other words, one car was built up and another car destroyed, in one case you have more then there once was and in the other you have less.

In the case of 0846 it was a best case scenario, History was not lost, it was rediscovered and built back up to probably the best that anyone on this planet could do.

In the case of 0858, next to the car burning to the ground, it was pretty close to a worst case scenario, a surviving piece of history torn apart to be built up with a body that not only is a recreation, but a recreation that fell significantly short of the mark.

Even if it is a Bitsa, my guess is that there are more original Ferrari P series parts on 0846 then Pipers 0858.

And one does not need to be Allegreti to see that the Piper attempt at replicating a P4 body missed the mark by a long shot. The work on the car was substandard and even Enzo's plumber could see that.

 

0858 was a car that sat unsold fora very long time. In short it was an ugly car, regardless of its history , knowbody wanted it because of its looks.

When it finally was sold, the the buyer hated the looks so he decided to covert it back to the coupe it was originally. It left the factory as a coupe.

 

I am well aware of the history of 0858.

IMO it was in better hands when Medelin had it.

Still doesn't change the fact that the history was destroyed When Talacrest converted it for Profit from a Can Am to a "P4".

 

Profit a dirty word on a Ferrari forum. Absolutely hilarious. Profit makes the world go round. Talacrest did what everyone else would have done including the hypocrites claiming otherwise. The only difference being JC had the balls where others did not, the wherewithal and the passion to see it through.