The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It's one thing to "beleive " that you have chassis 0846 (and perhaps write it on a carnet in the 1970's ), but another thing entirely to describe it as such in a contract when selling the car to a US billionaire in the 2000's .

Because while he may have suspected it contained elements of 0846, he could never be entirely certain - indeed this thread shows how difficult it has been to come up whith a conclusive answer.

Customs (at the time ) would not have cared less what the number on the chassis was, but having a number ( any number ) makes it easy to match up the paperwork with the goods.

It will be interesting to see what Ferrari come up with.

 

CALM DOWN.

Thats not what I was trying to convey at all.

I have said SEVERAL TIMES in this thread that I have the utmost respect for MM. I am NOT doubting him.

What I miss communicated/you misinterpreted was that the car that Marcel saw eventually "morphed" (this is not slanderous I am just trying to use a quick descriptive term) into Jim Gs car.

I would never cast doubt on what he saw. He seems like a great guy and I think he has the history of cars 1st and people 2nd. So I don't think he would take sides and I would never imply that.

To be CLEAR what I am questioning is the following

1. From the quoted posts. He saw a P3 or P4 chassis. He saw paperwork labeled 0846. We do not know if the two belonged together or if the chassis was indeed 0846. From the quotes he couldn't tell if it was a P3 or a P4 chassis let alone a specific chassis. So we do not have confirmation that it was exactly 0846 but... it is possible that it was.

2. When I said "if we take it that he did see it" I meant if we take it at face value and continue the argument in this particular direction then... ... ... this... or this... (argument goes on) It was not a slam at Marcel. That guy has forgotten more than I will ever know. If we take it at face value, and Marcel did infact 100% see 0846 in 1977 in switzerland and piper owned it.... We still don't know that the remains of 0846 ended up in Jims car. Just because it was owned or seen then does not mean it went into the production of Jims specific car. That is all anecdotal evidence. Its not like Marcel saw 0846, then saw 0846 get fabricated into 003, get its engine mounts "hack jobbed" and then a body put on it and then renumbered and sold as 003.

Why would I believe (or why do I put alot of weight) David Pipers word that it was a Replica. Because he would have gotten more money if it wasn't, and money typically motivates people to do... questionable things. He had nothing to gain by calling it a replica.

3. I am not taking David Pipers words of its a "replica PERIOD" as full stop evidence. I am taking David Pipers and Jim Gs AGREEMENT as powerful evidence or clue.

4. I much prefer physcial evidence as I mentioned MANY times in this thread over "he said she said" and who saw what, however many decades ago



I apologize for the confusion I may have caused.

 

It's possible Piper has paperwork, some people do keep stuff well past the legal requirement.
I would have the documentation / records for every car I've owned since 1980 (36 years ?).
Business records for 25+ years.....

 

Speculating as to why piper hasn't said "yes, the replica was built with bits of 0846" from the scrap pile could be due to what you say. Another speculation could be that he was not supposed to have the scraped 0846! (Hmmm...how did he get it? Did Ferrari know that? Might they want it back? Might there be legal questions?)

Again, these are merely speculative reasons why - *if* the replica sold to JG was built with remains of 0846 that piper would not want to say so. Point being, just because he hasn't said so, doesn't make anything a fact. We can think of reasons why he both would and would not claim it.

 

Pretty sure Jim doesn't have to listen to you 😀

Having a "tell me now" fit Is neither productive nor becoming.

It's also pretty damn funny in a thread and debate that has taken years!

 

Personally I believe BOTH of these accounts are 100% accurate.

Marcel absolutely did see chassis/engine 0846 in 1977. Piper is thought to have had something to do with the company that sold/exported it at that time. Then, decades later, Piper sold 003 which he described as a replica to a buyer who acknowledged it was in fact, bought as a replica. He doesn't want to discuss it further. Both stories mesh.

MM indicated 0846 was on the paperwork, and I believe him. Sure he didn't inspect the chassis for corroboration, but since the purpose of the paperwork was to track/tax import and export it's terrifically unlikely they hadn't verified the chassis number themselves, so MM wouldn't have had reason to inspect the chassis number himself.

I'd say it's pretty much impossible that a substantive amount of 0846 could have ended up in 003. The chassis, engine, and gearbox from 0846 aren't there. Of course if we're getting into cars built around tachometer needle than MAYBE some parts are on 003, but that doesn't make it 0846 - particularly when Piper knew where the chassis for 0846 went since he sold it in 1977.
And perhaps Piper tracked down that chassis years later to reunite the parts he had, but if he would have done that then he certainly wouldn't have sold 003 as a "replica" - it would have been called 0846 and sold for proper market value.

Not to mention he knew first hand the chassis wasn't 0846. So again, maybe some bits were from the original car. I'd even suspect it was likely. But that cannot make 003 something other than a replica with some period parts - particularly when the real chassis is still out there.

 

Is there any chance that the number 0846 was written on the paper work simply because it was easier then trying to import a replica chassis? Talking out of my butt here..

 

Yes. What is the fit about? Gotta wonder where the sense of entitlement comes from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSs6DcA6dFI

 

Yep. Unless Piper is speaking, it is dead in the water till then.

Visit with your families. Have a snack. Work in the garden.

Unless Jim G. is just saying this to drive Miura nuts for months.

Only time will tell.

 

Been on the iphone again have you, Vincent ha? You're fried!

 

Why can't David Piper just answer this? Makes you wonder if he is hiding something. Considering he wont talk about what Marcel saw? Whether he built 0003 from scratch or not, there was a Frame being shipped, most likely to Piper. What was that frame?

 

How is that suspicious? Things take the time they take. Who are you to demand any sort of time frame?

 

There is no link to what Marcel saw in 1977 and what David Piper sold to Jim what, 20 odd years later?

David Piper has been trading in these cars since the 60s and has owned some of the best examples out there.

He has clearly said 003 is not 0846 and has to answer to no one on the matter, Jim knew what was being sold, and what it was being sold as, a replica for replica money. Transaction over for Piper, and he has moved on.

I also am not questioning Marcel, so at some point a chassis related to 0846 has been in David Pipers hands, and he knew it. Pipes either still has that Swiss chassis or has sold it on to someone in confidence, lots of collectors like to stay very much under the radar.

 

What are the odds that JG knows quite a few of them and their collections?

What MM states that he saw is very interesting indeed...

 

I am sure he does know lots of them, I think I can safely say though that he wont know ALL of them. there are many many secret collections around the world.

Just like the art market what comes up for public sale is only a fraction of what exists, or is publically known to exist!

It would be comical if there was someone sat in the shadows of their mountain lair, stroking their white persian kitty and smiling away whilst looking at a certain Swiss chassis hanging above the vast fireplace which they acquired in 1979!

 

The problem with 'secret' collections is that they need to be maintained by actual people and people like to talk.

 

The Brunei collection is a vast, and well known private one, maintained by many companies and their many employees, try and find a list of cars in that one which is not well over 20 years old and which only scratches the surface.

 

People that work with that collection posting lists on the internet and telling (privately) respected people/collectors what they have seen/fixed/worked on are two entirely different things. LOL.

A fairly accurate list would be easy to compile if you had access to certain people. Unfortunately for the internet those people are respectful enough to keep that information fairly private.

You would be amazed what is discussed away from the web.

 

You have just contradicted yourself completely, one minute you are saying that if the swiss 0846 chassis was still out there somewhere then someone would have revealed that by now, and in the next post saying the complete opposite!

 

'Blabbed' on the internet is completely different than spoken privately with someone about what they have seen/worked on.

Its not that hard to grasp.

 

Ah the old, cannot back up my claims, so nudge nudge, wink wink I know something you don't know but cannot reveal my sources!

Please don't treat us for fools.

 

I didn't actually say or 'wink wink' that I knew anything specifically about 0846. What I did feel that I needed to do was remind you that there is a wealth of information about cars/collections that is NOT discussed on the internet. Your Brunei reference is a perfect example of that.

It is truly foolish to think otherwise.

 

So by your hypothesis it is perfectly feasible that the swiss 0846 chassis is sat in a private collection somewhere, and is talked about in inner circles but not made public?

Jim won't be party to every inner circle out there will he, so like the rest of us and the internet he could be none the wiser that it does exist somewhere else.

Exactly what you tried to pull me up about on in the first place!!!! comical.

 

The chances of more than a handful of even number Ferrari floating around waiting to be discovered are minimal, the chances that a chassis would sit in someones collection are so rare because only Piper, Anthony Bamford, Anthony Wang, Walt Medlin and Pierre Bardinon really ever had collections that could stretch from the 1970s to modern times and everything they have owned has been well and truly dissected. God, even the more secretive collectors today are well and truly covered, just look at the Wexner thread. The chances of Piper using a chassis or worse, selling a chassis like this without someone knowing about it from one or either end of the transaction are also slim, not impossible, but very slim. I believe that if he did/ does have the chassis and if it isn't in #0846 then it is almost certainly sitting in his shed with other bits and pieces waiting to be discovered. A couple of major leaps of logic required to get to that point, like every part of this story, though.

As for the Sultan of Brunei's car collection, the vast majority of the 1000s of cars were rubbish and have been left to rot. The very few (less than 100) that are worth something are well kept but by and large the Sultan doesn't want the publicity of selling so they sit in several "facilities" in Brunei although they are not shy about what they have. Baring in mind it was actually the Sultan's brother Jefri who bought them so that may also stop them from selling but the few that did sell include several 456 Venice by Pininfarina in both 4 door and station wagon format that were kept in the UK or USA and sold publicly, even through Ebay.... Brilliant article here about the collection and MS attempts to buy the star cars.

https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_201103_SS

But thats way Off topic, so can we get back to #0846......

 

Just to give you all an idea of the scope of this thread...

-In the time this thread has been active, my best friend's daughter has gone from wearing footed pajamas to graduating college.