The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Great. you repeat and repeat this same tired song every time.

Not many here care if Ferrari wrote it off the books.

The debate here is if the frame, that was INDEED written of the books by Ferrari, was actually destroyed or if the remains survived? Seriously, you should know that by now.

Should be simple enough to understand that??? No one is running to Ferrari trying to get it authenticated so you can relax on the official Ferrari Blessing, no one thinks Ferrari is going to give that.

 

The frame? Nothing survived but speculation.

 

BBBBBBBBB BUT every great artifact has a background and the only way to prove its provenance is to have full disclosure about its ownership and quality into and out of each change of hands. It would appear that there are only two possibilities, 1 - The original chassis was so butchered that it was altered by either DP or Jim between 1967 and 2000 or 2 - It was a new build that was modified to fit a P3 or GP type engine while in DPs hands. After all the photo's do show fitting of unorthodox engine mounts by an unknown party. While I have no problem with Jim having to prove that his car is or isn't #0003 or whatever it might be, I have a huge problem with people stating that DP doesn't or shouldn't be part of that process.

The Mona Lisa has proven provenance because every previous owner/ place of display is recorded and written about. Indeed any great artwork that doesn't have an open provenance is generally thought to be fake, especially if you had multiple or spurious claimants to that provenance. Here we have the same problem, Jim can only prove the exact provenance with DP being open about his tenure with the chassis and while I hugely respect Steve's work with the pictures I do not respect the glib comments from some like "DP cannot remember where the chassis was built" or the contradictory "DP is a P series god but those engine mounts (which must surely have been fitted during DP's tenure) are the devils work and proof that the car is a fake" which surely speaks badly of DP or one of his mechanics that they would fit such badly made mounts?

DP could answer four questions and put this all to bed

- Where did the Swiss chassis go?
- What was the Swiss chassis?
- Why were the engine mounts fitted to #0003
- Who made the chassis for all of the #0900 series cars

I don't see any way of Jim or anyone, other than DP being able to answer those questions.

 

Agreed. It is pure speculation at this point if the frame survived at all.

It is even more speculation that it ended up in 0846.

But, it is worth pursuing IMO to uncover if it is just speculation or not. Whether pursuing this leads to the fact that it is not or that it is.

 

Not to mention what happened to the frame after the 1967 pictures were taken. Including hypothetically any damage/modification that could have happened in disassembly, while in the scrapyard, during shipping, the Piper years, The Glick years etc. Thing could have happened. Not saying it did, but to write it off due to it does not appear exactly as it does in the photo's is foolhearted IMO.

 

Ok, now I am going to throw a proverbial hand grenade in the room and see what comes up.

My question is, IF this were to be one of DP replicas does ANYONE have any photos of the other 3-4 chassis he built for his known replicas for comparison purposes?

That may add more fuel to one side or the other.

I am not taking sides, but prefer to advance the research of the thread rather than read another 75 pages of name-calling.


PDG

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

That's just it though. It's SUCH a stretch to theorize DP003 must contain some remnants of 0846 because David Piper might have owned the chassis and some other parts in 1977. Many of the supporters of the JG story point to that as being the basis to justify calling DP003 0846.

I also can see what you're saying about welding and saving time. I've installed roll cages in race cars and it's a huge pain in the ass to get fitment right and have things to line up properly, welds to flow properly, etc. This brings us to working through a valid discussion of how and why scrap frame might have been used in construction of the replica frames:

1) Piper or the frame builder(s) wanted to save time.
The issue for me is this really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Piper had access to original factory stamped drawings and full specs for the original chassis. He had the most competent builder(s) in Modena with Manicardi e Mesuri and/or Vaccari and Bosi. He had access to the proper/original tubing (cappa emme oh) and likely the jigs to create a chassis far quicker than all the time requisite to screw around cutting up an old bent and heat damaged chassis that would have ultimately been compromised in comparison to a brand new one.

2) Piper wanted to salvage some part of 0846 either for posterity or future value.
Again, it just doesn't make any sense. 0846 wasn't DP's car to begin with so he wouldn't have had any emotional attachment to it that would compel him to "save" it. And in the words of nearly every Ferrari race historian - these cars were work horses that were cast aside without much care or concern. Run hard and put away wet.
I can envision Piper going through the hassle to keep 0846 around in the event it was worth something someday - particularly if he got it "free" - but then you still have to resolve why on earth he would have gone through those lengths only to "mistakenly" or "accidentally" sell 0846 as a replica because he didn't realize what it was.


There's a saying "If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true". I think that applies here. There are too many wild leaps needed to even get off the line with the narrative DP003 is actually rooted from 0846. Forget what other alterations came later, all of the inconsistencies of "experts", and all of the other holes in the story. The basis doesn't work from the inception.

 

Actually IMO this is exactly what needs to be done. To not compare this chassis to all of the other chassis Piper has constructed as well as those originally built by Ferrari is short sighted IMO. Mostly when claiming something as fact. As I have said all along, a thorough understanding of what Pipers hands did in relation to these frames is critical if anyone truly wants a real answer.

 

Thank you.

I was almost afraid to post the question with all the name calling in this thread.



PDG

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

I think this has been done by Steve.


In the end the only way we can get any further is for David and/or Liz Piper to answer the following questions:
1. What chassis was he transporting in 1977? and if it was actually #0846 what happened to it?
2. And who made DP003's chassis (assuming nothing to do with question 1) as he has never answered this but we know who made #0900's and the other two?

Every and anything else is a waste of time ...
Pete

 

It is quite clear that will never happen, and they have nothing to gain by doing so anyway.

003 is innocent until proving guilty, and it seems that is never going to happen either, If Jims car had actually been recently sanctioned by Ferrari it would have been with them at Daytona for the celebrations that's for sure.

 

Yes, DP is part of the process and said as manufacturer and seller anything needed. Chassis 0846 was not part of the process. Neither was a chassis that twenty years old Marcel Massini saw in 1977. And Chassis 0846 was not even in bits or ‘coincidentally’ part of the process, as MiuraSV documented.

 

Excellent point....

 

According to Marcel, this chassis was seen at Sbarro. Has anyone considered that Sbarro may have acquired it (from Piper?) and built one of his P4 (or some other) replicas on it?
Nathan

 

Anything is possible until Piper clarifies the actual history of DP003 and clarifies what happened with the chassis/paperwork seen by Marcel.

 

Comparing all of the frames produced is far from a waste of time.

 

Thanks for your big cup of pure speculation....

You have zero idea what frame Marcel saw and thus you have zero idea of what you are talking about.

 

Have any of these people that have the burning desire to chase this mystery frame decided to actually undertake activities to get information on their own? It has been made quite clear that David Piper is not going to answer questions. But that does not mean that there are not other sources these people can chase for information. Instead of waiting for spoon feeding here on FerrariChat they could actually take some initiative.

 

Correct, because there are no pictures indeed. However: where is the 'seen' number - if really remains of 0846 in DP0003 - today?

 

There is no part of me that believes the remains of 0846 surviving is not a long shot and even more so that if those remains did indeed survive that they ended up in 0846. Miura put together some good points that have lessened the chances of that being so in my mind, but there are still some red flags such as the Massini sighting that need to be cleared up. There are parts of the story that are still unanswered and without clarification of those events I don't believe one can rule it out.

As far as the tag? Who knows? We are talking 5 seconds worth of work to remove it, why someone would do that if indeed it was there? I have no idea. The people that can answer that question aren't talking, and when someone is not willing to talk, IMO it casts suspicion on what their motives are to keep certain facts covered up.

 

The key person has already spoken on the subject on day one. David Piper sold the car as a replica. The certificate of origin he created described a mash-up of engine/gearbox/body/suspension parts that were assembled to create DP003. The parts list even included some relevant Ferrari part numbers (ie 593A N7 Gearbox). IF remnants of chassis 0846 were in the mashup there's no reason he wouldn't have included that too.

 

As a matter of fact... yes we cut, modify and make sections of frames on and for cars on a daily basis. I have manufactured many parts for cars and have 100s of parts manufactured for one particular model of car. (I don't do the manufactring of the 100s of parts as it is farmed out but without my requests they wouldn't be made sort of a thing)

So I am extremely familiar with frames, replicas, replacements, damage, rust, jigs... you name it.

I can tell you with certainty... anyone who does this on a daily basis and is not a researcher or key board warrior (this comment is not aimed at you so please don't take it as a direct insult just a broad generalization to people commenting on the subject) that when it comes to getting something square... that it is easier to start fresh than to bend and manipulate and ultimately repair. The straightening is never straight, it measures square but how you get there is different as well as increasing the metal fatigue on the already damaged area. So you end up cutting and replacing.

The photos steve has posted and researched are important. To me "TO ME" it is clear as day that the rear isn't the same at all. The front is not the same at all. Not just the braking system but the tubes and arrangments.

If all that is left is the cabin area (which hasn't been examined) do we really have 0846?

I guess the question that I propose to you... is... and I understand I am just asking for your opinion at what point is it still 0846?

0846 was crashed and burnt... if the story is accepted that the chassis has been recovered and turned into a replica through repair and just general modification via replication process (creators own creativity) how much of 0846 is truly left.

As a best case scenerio we have the following...

Front frame replaced
Rear frame replaced.
Engine not original
Trans not original
Body not original
Interior not original
Steering wheel not original (A friend owns the/a steering wheel of 0846)
Suspension not original
Braking system not original
Glass not original

I haven't even checked into the lights, or wheels or ancillaries because... well whats the point

SO while my original question to you was regarding the frame... once you put everything else in to perspective... I think the argument becomes... umm... bleaker...

This is why ferrari doesn't want it at daytona.

And this is if the chassis magically is a modified crashed/burnt scrapped 0846 chassis. the above is the best case scenerio

(Yes I realize the last sentence is a bit leading or over sensationalized... done so on purpose... not to show bias but to emphasize how some people think that its ridiculous to think the car is 0846)

 

No one has yet offered to buy my challace. what is the deal? I will cut anyone a sweet deal on it!

 

If this were at all true we would know the story of the engine mounts. Piper has spoken very little about the car past what he had to do to sell it. Again if it were at all true he would still be willing to speak on any questions left. He isn't? Wonder why?

 

That is not for me to answer. Cars have been built up from much less and are known for what the minute remains were.

In fairness to J.G. he has always stated it is what it is regarding the surviving parts. His belief in the chassis may be wrong? But truthfully for now, as far as any originality is concerned, the chassis is all I care about. I don't really care for now if the heater vent spun laps at Le Mans to be honest.

To be honest, for me the question at this point is not as much did 0846 end up in the Glickenhaus chassis, it is did it survive at all? and if so where did it end up?

As far as the construction, many cars are repaired versus started from scratch during a racing season, so although you may prefer to start from scratch, it does not mean it is the only way to do it. No one is building a chassis from scratch to repair a bend etc. That is ridiculous. They may take out the entire damaged section and replace it all new but they are not going toss the chassis and start from square one.

And lets be honest here, if things were done "properly" all straight and square like you mentioned, we wouldn't be staring at the extra engine mounts that were crudely added on...

Sure, the way you explained it should be done may be the standards that you work by, but I'd hardly agree that through race car history others come close to being concerned with your standards.

In the simplest of examples, it happens everyday all day long at any collision repair center that is fixing damaged cars.

I would love to see the day where someone gets in a fender bender and the insurance company replaces the whole car.

And that is just the insurance company writing a check to pay for something that is mass produced. Here we are talking about a ton of man hours to build something from scratch.

Not saying this is what happened, but it is also completely possible that it did.

Would love to hear from you on your question though, as it is one I cannot answer. At what point do you think the car is no longer the car? And with that in mind, which cars that appear on the lawn at FCA meetings should no longer be allowed to do so as they don't contain enough of the remains of the original construction? How many wrecked and repaired cars can no longer be considered Ferraris? How many smashed, hashed, and crashed Vintage racers should no longer be allowed to compete?

If there was indeed remanants of 0846 to be proven in say J.G.'s chassis, then I think it should be held to the same standards of the other cars that are considered to still be authentic. And those cars that are considered authentic that don't meet those standards should no longer be considered authentic. Fair enough?