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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    According to Google, the choices are: Connard, Imbecile, Enfant Naturel, Salopard.

    Frankly, owning a company called Imbecile appeals to my oppositional nature. "So who do you work for?" "Imbecile" "What?" "Imbecile" "Why you *******..."
     
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  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
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    "Metisse" in French is neutral or factual: it means a person who has parents of different races, but is not offensive at all, in the sense that it does not implies any moral wrong doing ot misconduct by the parents: the kid might have been conceived by married people, in wedlock. For instance, it is a well known fact that the great XIXth century novelist Alexandre Dumas was a métis, and it would hurt no one to hear this, not even himself.

    The french for "Bastard" is "bâtard", which has nothing to do with a difference in the color of the skin of the parents, but has moral and legal implications if used for a man (or women); it came from the Kings of France habits: they usually had mistresses with whom, from time to time, children were born out of wedlock. These kids were not "legal", but conceived in sin, even if almost everyone knew usually who the father was. "Bâtard" is not derogatory when used for the kids of the french Kings conceived out of wedlock, because it is a well known fact.
    But "bâtard" is very derogatory, even today, if used for a person: it suggest that something is legally, and usually moraly also, wrong in his birth, not that the skin of the two parents is of a different color (the skins might be of the same color, and actually usually is, most of the time). It is still offensive today.

    Note that the same "bâtard" can be used for dogs, in which case the meaning is then not offensive at all, it then suggests a dog born of two different races; it is even affectionate in that case. But certainly not for a human being.

    In your four Google equivalents, only the third is close, but even so, it is only factual: "enfant naturel" is a legal notion for a kid born out of wedlock.
    The three others allude to stupidity (1 & 2) or crass, wicked behavior (4). I won't suggest an english translation, I guess I would get banned.

    Rgds
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    Hmm... Salopard This might make a cool name for a new company or maybe a car? :)
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #9704 Rifledriver, Dec 30, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
    Salopard Cabriolet

    It has a ring.

    I can imagine it being announced as it drives up the ramp at Pebble.


    Mr and Mrs Dale in their extraordinary Salopard Cabriolet.


    Didn't James Dean drive a Salopard Spyder?
     
  6. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!


    You're a sick man. But I like it!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  8. ReverendClog

    ReverendClog Rookie

    Jan 18, 2014
    7
    Its off topic, but then so much of the thread is.

    My old Dad has retired to France and spent much of his time tramping around the French canal and river system on an old dutch barge he renovated.

    The boat was sold a couple of years ago - miraculously so, as my linguistically challenged old papa posted adverts from Belgium to Carcassone describing said craft as a 'batard' rather than a 'bateau'.
    Of course, and this tenuously connects with the issues dealt with in this thread, the craft in question could properly be referred to as a bastard with no colloquial insult pertaining, much as Jim's '0846' is a mix of parts of unknown parentage.

    I too, miss Jim's fantastic contributions to f'chat - we've met more than once although we haven't been formally introduced and I've met David Piper once or twice.
    My old man was an engineer for Mercedes, and was a works driver for Merc, Citroen and Peugeot in the 70's and eighties.

    I believe that the current '0846' is not the same as the 'old' 0846, but Jim has, chassis authenticity notwithstanding, all of 0846 that can ever be, nearly every part of the car is made or certified by Ferrari.
    As an enthusiast I would rather 0846 be a possible than gone.
     
  9. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Having exchanged a number of correspondences with Napolis, I can tell you that he certainly is not one who runs from his past. He has embraced his family and his past work experiences.

    And, to your second point, he often engages in spirited and polite debate. But based on the personal nature of the insults in this thread, I can't blame him for departing.
     
  10. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    ^^Agree^^


    - via iPhone
     
  11. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Texas!
    I have not had the same experiences as you.
     
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  13. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    Do you have any thoughts on the personal insults slung at David Piper, Miura SV and others who have questioned some of JG's claims?
     
  14. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    I want to be clear on something... it wasn't my intention to say he is running from his past meaning his family or when he was a little kid or whatever... I was more or less talking about sometimes we say things years ago and we would prefer to just leave it in the past and say we have grown since then.

    I know very little of Jims family etc... and didn't mean to imply anything that he would be running from family wise or that long ago. It was pertaining to 0846.

    As far as personal nature of the insults... welcome to the internet. Its unfortunate and I don't condone it... but... it is unfortunately the nature of it.

    Also, he has thrown a fair amount of insults and threats of law suits etc...

    Like I have said many times...

    When you buy a car as a replica... and then claim it to be the real deal... you had better put your internet flame suit on.

    If he didn't mind the debate he would refute muiraSVs pictures. He would stick to the debate not the trash.

    Im all for getting him back in here and heavily policing the thread against insults and sticking to the facts/evidence and I guess we have to entertain theory of the car in questions.

    If its insults that drove him away... lets give him the safe space to debate the car in a civil manner.

    Its 2017 and I still haven't seen his break through on the information that was "coming soon"
     
  15. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    Where is steve? Has he posted or even checked in?
     
  16. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    Several posts on other threads within the last few days.

    Unlike others, perhaps he has nothing more to say on this for the time being!
     
  17. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

    Nov 3, 2012
    6,865
    +1
     
  18. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    Having had numerous "discussions" on F Chat with J.G. he would be no place with out Sal for whom he barely ever acknowledges. There are many other sources he could have turned to for his restorations but to be in a position to successfully set up is own shop is a rare privilege available to very few. I am sure Sal is well compensated and is assisted by a select small group of other assistants. The other past source for much of J.G.s achievements is David Piper. Basically J.G. would be no place today with out getting his start with David Piper who is acknowledged to be the great protagonist in the saga of the 250 GTO and the mid engine competition Ferraris.Yes, controversial as David Piper is, to be constantly berated by Glickenhaus and his band of merry puppets shows how little respect he has for the person who got him started in the first place. The best thing Glickenhaus could do now is to cash it all in and walk away taking his legacy with him as being no more than as being memorable for his own legacy .At least it appears he won't be heard from on F.C. in the future.In a way I will almost miss his arraogance. tonga's crew
     
  19. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    Not going to comment further on your insistance on bringing David Piper into this discussion, but saying Jim does not acknowledge Sal is a complete lie. If you follow him on Facebook you'll quickly understand Sal is the main reason why Jim uses the pronoun "we" when he writes about his cars
     
  20. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    well... as a bystandard... I haven't really heard much of Sals name at all personally. I don't follow him on facebook (I don't do facebook) so my perspective is truly only limited to this site... but from where I am he is almost a ghost figure...

    So much so that I don't even know if he is worth bringing into the convo or just a distraction. Is it sal that planted the seed or has perpetuated the theory of the car being 0846? Genuinely asking.
     
  21. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    From my experience, Miura SV drew first blood. He actually flamed me for a genteel comment that was not even directed at him. And when I pointed it out, he upped the ante on flaming me. Who wants to face crap like that?

    Napolis is a big guy and can speak for himself, but I can only tell you my recollection of this thread--I believe Napolis was much like a mixture of professor and a proud father. Showing us in an academic way why his vehicle was genuine, and a proud father in seeing the final product. And when he felt attacked, he defended himself.

    I admit I may not be objective, because Napolis has been kind to me, but my recall is that Napolis didn't initiate any insults.



    His big news was actually posted in a number of places, and on facebook. I asked him if I could put it on this thread, and someone else had already done it. I thought it was pretty strong.

    Two thoughts: (1) Jim has always praised Sal for his work and has given him ample credit for many, many things and (2) Sal is an employee. He is paid well, but more than that, he is paid a salary which makes him happy. He does not need any "feel good, touchy feeley, puff pieces" to give him satisfaction. When an employee of mine wants a pat on the back, I tell them, "that's what the money is for."

    When did someone in this country acquire the authority to tell us how someone else should "feel?" Geez, we have become a nation of chocolate doughnuts with no spine, and a constant need to be reassured and nurtured. Geez, do you job, keep your mouth shut, and be happy with your paycheck.


    No evidence that it originated with Sal. I think it originated with a stamped serial number which read "0846."
     
  22. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
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    I think it began when John Hadjuk said I think its #0846. Before you hit this comment with a torrent of hate, consider that we are told that David Piper is the scion of the P series, then why do so many say John who, because he has spent almost as much time restoring or building P-cars and has a deep knowledge of them. As for comments by Tongascrew (someone I respect) that Jim didn't treat others fairly and should do more to keep these posters happy, what about the attacks and abuse thrown his way? tit for tat and all that.
     
  23. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
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    #9720 Vincent Vangool, Jan 5, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
    From what I remember it was Hadjuk that first thought the frame to be 0846 when he was working on it. I believe he felt the damage he found to the frame was similar to the damage he felt 0846 would have.

    Before that, I believe Sal was with JG when he bought the car from Piper, Sal had inspected the various frames and had believed JG's frame was faithful to the way the originals were constructed, but at this point I don't believe Sal thought it was 0846.

    I believe the Hadjuk moment was the catalyst.
     
  24. GTSF

    GTSF Rookie

    Jan 5, 2017
    1
    Did Ferrari authenticated this incredible car as 0846 recently? I saw few other individuals or organizations did but really Ferrari did?
     
  25. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    #9722 johngtc, Jan 5, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017

    I was not pointing the finger specifically at you - or JG for that matter - but you must agree that some prolific posters of waffle have not held back in trying to discredit Piper or those of opposing views. And this approach was also apparent in the separate, but not entirely unrelated. #0858 thread.
     
  26. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,238
    My recollection was that Jim stated it was Sal who spotted the option of mounting two types of engine in 0003 when they first inspected the car at Pipers workshop prior to purchase and it was this that made them believe it could have originally been the frame from 0846 as it was the only p4 to have run two types in period, and the only one missing.

    The Hadjuk story is hearsay, as told via Jim, I am not aware of John Hadjuk ever publically stating he believed Jims car to be related to the original 0846. It is based on a claim Hadjuk had read a book showing period photos of damage caused to 0846 which look similar to repairs he had spotted on Jims car. This book has never been identified or the photos within it showing such damage.
     
  27. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    500
    It was more a mixture of manipulation (i.a. 'estoppel-VIN') and a highly professional PR-campaign to fake history, consequently using all the available tools of modern social media (see also Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus ? Ferrari P3/4 0846) as well as this forum. Here, the storyline was not just supported from the ‘claquers’ but also from the moderators (banned for “trolling” ... “he is coming over like an ass” ... constant warnings ... etc.) and it’s unbelievable after all, that this very support is still continued and the tread not moved to the replica section.

    Finally, Miura’s documentation showed that DP0003 is exactly what the car was sold for and the romantic fairy tale had no lucky ending. But the campaign made DP0003 more prominent than the long gone original (what did certainly not detract on the car's value). And from that very aspect the modern fairy tale was a highly successful PR-campaign that really deserves our full respect.
     
  28. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    This is really a disgusting post. I was characterizing my experience with Napolis. And I was characterizing my impression of his words.

    Do you understand that sarcasm and dry wit often do not translate well when written. Many, many people misunderstand the full context of a conversation when it is written instead of being spoken.

    My experience with Napolis--and I will bet you my spare Range Rover against your Hundai that I have much, much more experience in communicating with Napolis than you--is that your insults are wrong.

    Do you realize that you are basically accusing Napolis of a crime? You are accusing him of using interstate commerce to place a false value on an asset, and I am sure that he has submitted his financial statements to some banks or other financial institutions. And for you to suggest that he deliberately engaged in a campaign to falsely inflate the value of an asset . . . well you are accusing him of financial fraud. That's a fair reading of your post. And I am not sure you really want to do that, do you? I mean, if Napolis choose to do so, he could sue you for defamation.

    You might benefit from inserting the word "allegedly" in some of your more caustic remarks. It could keep you out of trouble.
     

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