The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

thank for the pics MR G. !!!!!

 

*slaps forehead*

Well, THAT was a little too obvious. Thanks.

 

Aventino,

Thanks for the 512 complicated story ... that is totally confusing

There is atleast one car I can think of that would confuse Horsefly's thinking, and that is any Alfa Romeo SZ. Zagato bodied those cars for customers and this had nothing to do with the factory. In most cases perfectly good, if not brand new, Alfa bodies were removed from the chassis and scrapped and Zagato replaced it with his racing version.

Now I can bet lots of money that all Alfa SZ variants are most welcome at shows and concours, etc. with the snobs walking around and muttering how cool these little Alfas are ... which is double standards where as NNO said the Breadvan is not (I have assumed 2819 is the Breadvan).

Again I do not believe a car has to be 100% original as it left the factory, or even to have the same chassis, engine, gearbox, diff, body or anything. If the continuous history of that car is well documented and all these modifications clearly stated then that car is still the same car as it was campained as such. Yep the Grandpa's axe theory ... so what cars are machines/tools just like the axe. If somebody should find the original chassis, then all they have is a disgarded part from that car ... they cannot remake that car from that, all they can do is make a replica of that car at the time that it used that chassis. The REAL car has moved on and taken on a new replacement chassis. Now the only acceptable twist on this logic is where the cars history and modifications were not documented ... thus nobody knows, and thus if one can prove that this chassis was used by the car at some period then you arguably have/can remake that missing car. Now if somebody later on can prove that the car (via race entries say) continued campaining as the same car with different components ... then your claim is stuffed IMO.

When I was last in the States I went to a very good car museum in LA. I joined in on a guided tourer and ended up chatting a lot with the guide. He indicated that America now has very much moved into keeping cars 100% original even if it means they look like **** and possibly non-drivers. This IMO is just plain rediculous, as a car is a fncken car meant for driving not looking at. And this attitude causes these complicated discussions, because in the end the cars are NEVER original, but the dents, scratches, etc. that the car got during its life time were added by the owners ... just like modifications, or a paint job or a new engine. No difference.

0846's history would have been so easy and solid if Piper had simply kept records and not played MI5 ... Piper doing this simply devalued his stock, but atleast he still thinks a race car is a race car

Pete
ps: My PM box was flooded last night ... I've emptied it so if any of you were trying to PM me, please have another go

ps2: I will be clearly documenting somewhere in my car that my Alfa Romeo GTV had a complete restoration from years X to Y. Thus if ever in the future my ownership is lost and for some reason somebody wants to argue about it being restored ... somewhere in that car hidden from view will be this information that the next restorer will find . While it is impossible to stop people doing a Piper , I think the ownership of a classis or any collectible item requires that you keep its history clearly documented to pass on to the next owner ...

 

One thing that I learned long ago while tracking down serial number history through various offices of the Department of Motor Vehicles:

Don't look for things that you don't want to find. Don't ask questions that might have a very unhappy answer. Sometimes it is best to let the waters remain murky. If they suddenly became crystal clear, one might find something lying on the bottom that would ruffle alot of feathers and therefore upset the entire applecart. Remain ignorant and one can truthfully say: "I never knew about THAT!!!"

 

Oops, but owe is that statement too true. I made the mistake to talk about a young man dieing on a motorbike after reading a story on a Ducati site I frequent. This unfortunate accident occurred when this chap bought a brand new Yamaha R1 as his first bike, and 3 hours later was dead.

Now I have been seriously thinking of getting a Ducati SS to liven up my to work and back travel as I am finding the traffic jams boring, etc. ... and after that discussion to my wife, she then started to go on about how worried she was about my bike idea as she has seen the way I light up on a good bit or road, etc. ...

Me and my big mouth ... , I was going to gone about how I was much worse and a complete idiot when I was younger ... but realised I was in a lose lose situation so shut up

When I return to motor racing, times will be interesting

Pete

 

I went to a party with some old friends I used to bike with.

Roared in thru the harleys, got out of my 308GTB, slammed the door and quipped "it's like a bike, but with doors!"

they all cracked up laughing......

 

Maybe you could sell her on the Multistrada.......

 

ROTFLMAO...!!!
...wait... That wasn't funny; it was just a REPLICA of funny... If it were REAL funny, it would..................

Paul, it's not being restored AS 0846, it IS 0846; it's being restored so Jim can play with it. i think he made that abundantly clear from the get-go...

 

I'll throw some more meat on the plate. A couple of interesting websites. Perhaps nothing new, but maybe some data lies within that is worthy of interest.

http://www.imca-slotracing.com/QUIZZ1.htm This is just the first of six pages.

And still more.
http://www.imca-slotracing.com/1967-PART1.htm

There is plenty of meat on those bones.

 

The author of the article is obviously an idiot. What and how does TV affect the quality of the on track racing ... it doesn't, thus actual racing did occur right back to around 1899 (or something).

Not sure Horsefly if it is worth reading any further? ... another fool (the author not Horsefly) that thinks real racing did not exists before Bernie. All Bernie did, for those that don't know, is televise the sport ... the sport was doing fine before and will do fine after him.

Note this is not a critisim of you Horsefly at all, I just find that first sentence on the site absolutely rediculous ...

Pete

 

I have very vague memories from the 70s of an article in Car and Driver or Road and Track about a guy who had a 917 registered and driven on the street. It was even registered in some US midwestern state, as I dimly recall, although he was keeping it in Europe.

Your cars look great, BTW! Thanks much for sharing the pictures with us!

 

Horsefly,
I've read that 'slotrace' site about the 1966 and 1967 races thoroughly - it's OK where it just reproduces the contemporary articles, but the intro bits are just garbage and some of the reports seem to have been translated by Babelfish.

I believe the owner (and possibly the writer!) is a bloke called van Rossem who used to own a Formula 1 team called Onyx and a business called Moneytron - try a search, because the history is interesting, to say the least.

On the first of those links, quite near the top of the first page, is a photo of a red Ferrari P #6 - that's David Piper in his 365P s/n o824 taken a couple of years ago.

In the Daytona report is a pic of Piper #27 in his 250LM s/n 8165.

PM

 

I merely posted those links because it was an interesting site with alot of old pictures. Did nobody notice the photo of Amon at Daytona in the P4, the number 23 car? Is that the 0846 car? How about the small description about Amon and the fate of 0846 at LeMans that was buried deep in the article. All are known facts, but maybe some long forgotten photos. And of course, the quest for photos of 0846 at LeMans AFTER the fire still needs to be pursued.

 

Hey,

400 posts and 10K views.

Impressive!

Art S.

 

There should be a lot of pictures of the burnedout #0846...why not?
Maybe because the people who took these pictures so many years ago..are not into computers and the internet...
Of course the pictures excists...but reaching them who have them can be difficult.
Meanwhile...here´s a picture of #0846 not often seen.
Staff.

 

The picture dissapeared somwhere on the way...but I am sure it will turn up eventually.
Staff.

 

You are not subscribed and therefore can't post pictures anymore. If you find it, email it to someone who is and maybe they will post it for you.

 

Quoted below to save reading all the other stuff ...

Jim, Here is an interesting period photo that I am sure you have referred to (from that site):

Pete

 

Jim,
Not meant as a 'leading question', but purely out of interest ....
Would you mind my asking how you managed to come by the registration '330 P4' ?
You see, the last time I remember seeing this (then California) plate, it was on the back of a Noble P4 replica.
The car was Noble chassis #007 and Richard Brengman's (the official US Noble importer) original demonstrator - powered by a 244 cu. in. Buick V-8. The car featured in Petersen's Kit Car magazine in January, 1990, and the plate can be clearly seen in a B&W photo on page 16. Last I heard (the car has changed hands a couple of times since), it was in the Dallas, TX area. P.S. - if you don't want to post a reply here, you could email me instead.

 

Don,
There was also an article on a Ferrari 412P (a 'customer version' P4) chassis #0850, being street driven (in LA)
by Dino Martin Jnr. Published in the November 1970 issue of Motor Trend magazine - pages 38-40.
Some of the photos from that article are posted at: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67313035#post67313035

 

Count Rossi (of Martini and Rossi) had a 917K registered in Alabama that he drove on the street in Europe.

 

Paul,

In the US, each state has its own number series for their license plates. Also, you can purchase 'vanity plates' directly from the state government with whichever number/letter combination you like, as long as it’s not deemed profane and not already take in the state. Assuming '330 P4' was available in New York (where Jim lives) it is not relevant that this number is already issued in California.

One of the small perks of living in the US.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Jim

The build looks like its really gathering pace, and the workmanship looks great, Whats left to complete?

 

Piper outsmarted himself. You must be kidding. You can be assured thats one aspect that is not up for debate

 

Hi
We're just about done with plumbing and wireing and should be firing her up in a week or so.
Best