The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

https://www.facebook.com/ajbaime/posts/617490208448874


" Ferrari sold me parts to restore 0846 after inspecting it. An authorised Ferrari Dealer has continueously NYS Safety inspected it as 0846 for 17 years. It was displayed in the National Auto Museum of Italy with Ferrari's full knowledge as "The Daytona Winner" after ASI Gold Plate certified that it was original and based on that certification it was invited as 0846 to the 100Th anniversary of the Targa Florio. Ferrari was aware before it Appeared in The Grand Tour driven by James May that that was happening and they not only didn't object but let them film at the factory. At that time they confirmed in writing that I was the owner of 0846. LDM asked Andrea Pininfarina what the story was with 0846 and me. Andrea told him. He replied "We threw it out and he put it back together? That's funny." I kind of agree with him..."

 

Interesting way of putting things...

How can Ferrari agree to never have anyone else challenge Jim in court?

Sounds like some serious bending of language.

If someone rolls out with 0846 from a garage some place they can certainly challenge it and Ferrari can't say anything about it legally.

This boils my blood. I doubt anyone has even looked into this as deeply as steve.


The quote from Andrea and LDM... what do they know about the intricacies of 0846? Thats going to sound blastphamous... I know... but if they haven't looked into it recently and into the depth and they are relying on blanket statements and relying on 50 year old knowledge... their opinion means squat absolute squat.

The language has constantly been twisted to fit a narrative for the last 10 years. it is always presented in some way that can be technically correct but always over reached in substance and intent.

Prove that the car is 0846. You can't plain and simple

 

Fair enough, and thanks for responding

BUT ... my whole point about "burden of proof" begs the question: shouldn't this thread be in the replica section, until you are 100% certain that it DOES have real 0846 chassis parts?

In short : replica until PROVEN otherwise (proven beyond reasonable doubt, or at least proven by preponderance of evidence).

EDIT : and, as i've suggested, in-period photos carry much more weight (for many of us, i suspect) ... as true "evidence" ... than any legal maneuvering that resulted in some tangled form of estoppel.

 

Is this thread still ongoing?


Reminds me of when Jim Glickenhaus spent months on yahoo finance message boards out of all places claiming the company him and his son invested in(China Agritech) was not a scam after it had been delisted and placed under investigation. He threatened to sue everyone on the yahoo message board who laughed at him. LOL!

 

Ya ya everyone always naive and innocent.

 

Jim disclosed in the Feb 7th WSJ interview the fact that "Ferrari itself will not confirm that this car is #0846". Who cares if he says Ferrari agreed not to challenge it when he already published Ferrari's position on his car?

These tepid "confirmations" and hearsay doesn't trump the fact that Ferrari won't say DP003 is 0846. Let's look at a couple of them:

"Ferrari sold me parts to restore 0846 after inspecting it."
-- What does that prove? Who wouldn't Ferrari sell auto parts to?

An authorised[sic] Ferrari Dealer has continueously[sic] NYS Safety inspected it as 0846 for 17 years.
-- What does this prove? A state inspection shop provided a safety inspection for a road going car that has an owner applied VIN. Presumably if the car had the replica number DP003 on it they would have inspected it as such... so would that definitively make it DP003? To that point, was the car inspected as DP003 before Jim changed the chassis number?

Ferrari was aware before it Appeared in The Grand Tour driven by James May that that was happening and they not only didn't object but let them film at the factory. At that time they confirmed in writing that I was the owner of 0846.
-- Let's see that confirmation, because IF it exists and it's valid I don't think there's a chance in hell Jim wouldn't have already published it, nor would he have made the statement in the WSJ article "Ferrari itself will not confirm that this car is #0846" if he had such a document in his possession.

 

I'm really a novice at this stuff, but it is an interesting read. Does Jim's car have 0846's number plate? Did these cars even have number plates?

I remember reading years ago in the Malibu Enzo crash thread involving Stefan Eriksson that you could basically reconstruct the entire car from new "old-stock" parts (supplied by Ferrari, of course) and the car is still considered (and certified) as the original, so long as it has the number plate.

Interesting conundrum.

 

Rob, you are a moderator!

Rob, what about this
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/recreations-non-period-rebodies/534444-subforum-definitions-rules.html
Please explain.

There are cars in that thread that have Ferrari chassis or a percentage of a Ferrari frame!!

 

I think you mean 0846. I don't think there's any doubts regarding Jim's 412P #0854, etc.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way... but if it is interesting on the surface wait until you dive into the whole thing... Its a pretty fun riddle.

To answer your question... Jims car did NOT have a vin number/plate/stamp that said 0846 when he purchased it.

it does now.

He has added it to the car. It was not ANYWHERE on the replica car and after he went down the rabbits hole... he added it

 

A well known Ferrari trader once coined the phrase 'Rebuilt around a genuine tach needle'. That tells you all you need to know about some 'Historic' cars. Caveat Researcher!

 

This might seem harsh, but willing things to be something they aren't as if by magic is typical behavior of guys with huge egos like Jim. It reminds me of the China Agritech fiasco, when his son flew to China with a cheap camera to try to disprove the short sellers. Then Jim went on Bloomberg, made a fool of himself, and turned out to be wrong.
He is a typical New York db. All show, no go, all thanks to his father Seth.

Aahahahhah, duped by the Chinese.
Hilarious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MR7c-RiRyI

Jim, please make a video on "Nino's" car.

 

Interesting stuff. So, without having to read through 490+ pages, anyone know how much of the car is original? (Percentage)

 

Is anyone selling three original Bugatti badges? I think I want to build myself three 57 Gangloffs.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145210976-post9839.html

???

There are rules here on Fchat, if you didn't care to notice.

1. General Posting Rules:

1.1 No "Flaming": Please do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another user.



There are also dedicated moderators who make it clear to all what should and shouldn't be posted.

 

Whether you believe it contains part of the chassis or not, it is interesting to note that most racing cars of the period were rebuilt after each race and each rebuild would require replacement with a certain % of parts from others in their series and spares so even the single extant P4 (#0856) is (a 100% original) 330P4 but perhaps 50 - 80% of its parts will be stamped with #0856 the rest will be from #0846, 0858 and 0860 along with spares and so its difficult to gauge. As for #0846 specifically, it depends on whether you believe in Jim's story or believe the opposite, Jim's story purports the claim that some of the chassis is from the original #0846 which under accepted car theory means he has the identity (even if someone had the rest of the parts from #0846, Jim would own the right to the legal entity of #0846).

Further it is accepted that many parts currently fitted are from OEM spares and others in the series so while Jims car may or may not prove that 1% of the number of parts and maybe 10% by mass is from #0846, it is likely that his car contains perhaps 30 - 50% original P4 parts. Let me note that #0858 is an interesting counterpoint because the parts fitted to the car in 196? when converted to 350 CanAm spec and removed when David Piper restored it back to 330P4 spec perhaps took the car from 60% P4 to maybe 40% P4, perhaps 50% at the most and the OEM parts fitted would have come from various members of the series, just like the modern #0846 along with many made by Piper in the 2010s. To be clear, its hard to be specific what exactly, apart from the claimed part remains of the chassis, part of the car came from #0846 as opposed to just any P series car. Clear as mud eh!

 

Dave, FYI JG is not a user here.

 

The world of GTOs and P cars summed up in 4 sentences:

I still own my great-grandfather's axe.

I replaced the blade.

Then I replaced the handle.

I still own my great-grandfather's axe.

 

???

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/members/161.html

Come on, man.

 

The huge difference between 0858 and Jims car is that there is a direct, and undisputed/unbroken line with 0858 which starts with Ferrari and ends with its current owner.

Jims car is proven to start with David Piper as a reproduction, anything prior to that is pure speculation with no hard proof what so ever that the chassis was built with any parts shorn from the original chassis of 0846 when Ferrari scrapped it. Until an independent and acknowledged body or person comes forward directly and states that they believe Jims car has any relationship with the original 0846 and lists the evidence to support that belief then its simply a very fine facsimile of a p4 specification car using period correct components (well apart from the engine which was never fitted to a p car in period).

Yes it does contain genuine P4 components, these may have been fitted to some of the P4s or just unused left over spares. No one knows for certain their original usage, Jim has stated some of the bodywork came from 0858 but from memory has not confirmed how that has been proven,

 

Where are you?

 

Absolutely fair enough, I was simply pointing out that no-one can be 100% sure what % of original parts is in any P car. For that matter nobody knows what % of #0846 or any other P series car remains in the current #0846/DP003

 

This seems to be the new storyline downplaying the VIN change and estoppel manoeuvre. However, it confirms that there is no Ferrari with number 0846 in existence. DP0003 is not 0846. Great car for sure but no Ferrari frame.