The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    4,718
    MM put in writing ( on Fchat no less ) what he saw, but the comments currenlty attributed to Sbarro are just heresay until Sbarro puts them in writing himself.

    MM has his crediblity at stake with anything he puts in writing, yet he willingly shared his observations on what he saw. No upside for MM at all, he wasn't involved with Piper / Sbarro at time, he was just an observer.
     
  2. tonykalil

    tonykalil Karting

    Aug 20, 2010
    59
    I think the logic is flawed here, to suggest that the siting of a chassis or a carnet, would be definitive proof that 0846 exists in DP003. Instead, this discussion might be best discussed in a "The (one and only) chassis at Sbarro's Debate Thread"

    As we have all seen, the images of DP003 prove that the chassis is completely different to the vintage images of 0846. To suggest that 0846 was changed after the last original pictures were taken is purely speculative to keep the dream alive, and all who have followed this thread from the beginning know that the "story" keeps evolving to suit the evidence, rather than the evidence proving the theory.

    Instead, the logical question that would support a confirmed siting of a chassis assumed to be 0846 at Sbarro's would be "Which one of David's other P4s recreations could be built with remains of 0846?" Because DP003 clearly was not.
     
  3. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
    Again, not Mr. Sbarro or Mr. Massini or who is right or wrong is the issue here, but the fact, that DP0003 and the late 0846 are two different frames. Please consult the sales documentation and Miura's pictures. Hence, it’s immaterial what somebody remembers having seen or not and what age that person had (or has). Yes, a lot is fantasy and let’s also keep theories apart. However, fact is simply that Piper sold a replica and Miura's documentation confirms this.
     
  4. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
    This is nonsense. Beyond any reasonable doubt: Two different frames and the car is simply no Ferrari. Please contact David Piper and feel free to compare all Piper replica chassis, although this makes no sense either. And again: Just nobody has to explain or prove anything except those, who claim that DP0003 contains original chassis parts of the late 0846. So, we are still waiting and anything else is just bubbling.
     
  5. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
    Absolutely.
     
  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    1,553
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    I can think of approximately 10 theories about why the chassis was at Sbarros garage with that carnet but without information it is all pretty far fetched, one thing is certain though, only Piper connects the dots between the source of the chassis seen at Sbarro and the end use of it. Until he wishes to write memoirs or write a book about these cars, we will remain in the dark and that would be Pipers right to keep us so.
     
  7. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  8. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jul 11, 2004
    1,402
    England
    Full Name:
    Nathan Beehl
    Well said!
    Nathan
     
  9. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,555
    Phoenix AZ
    Full Name:
    Justin
    I appreciate your concise argument.

    The failure in the logic/argument you provided is that while what you stated is true... it is not the whole story.

    MM has provided in writing that he saw a carnet with 0846 and he saw a frame.

    He did not authenticate that the frame matched the carnet. He did not confirm the frame stamp and to the best of knowledge at that age, and to be perfectly honest I would need pictures as reference to see the difference, couldn't tell the difference between individual p cars frames whether it be a P3 or P4 or version of or perhaps even a replica.

    I am not saying that this is what happened... but importing and exporting many many things including cars and parts and speaking to guys who were part of the import and export business back then... you put whatever you needed to put on the paperwork to get the item in or out with as little fuss or money as possible. In modern day times the importing of a custom made vehicle (replica) from overseas into the US for example would be rejected for noncompliance of USDOT and FMVSS rules... however if you meerly separate the engine and chassis it is no longer a car... and they are only parts... once you get passed customs you can marry them together. I do not practice this... and I hate that people do this... but people do this.... today... the crap they did back then... WOW... lets just say there is a reason there are so many rules and you have to post hefty bonds when importing and exporting now. I merely provide this to add a little context to the situation. Not as an outright explanation
     
  10. tonykalil

    tonykalil Karting

    Aug 20, 2010
    59
    You state that "It is not the whole story", when in fact, it is a completely different story.

    This 0846 siting at Sbarro story has nothing to do with the DP003 story, as we have all seen that 0846 in its last historical photos before being scrapped is a completely different chassis to DP003. David Piper is the only link between the two, but since we can all see that the two chassis in question are completely unrelated, we can no longer include the Sbarro siting in the story of DP003.

    The DP003 story is already complete: David Piper built, raced, and sold a replica P4 DP003. That is the whole story.

    Mysteries surrounding historical sitings of 0846 do not magically attach themselves as footnotes to stories of other well known cars, especially once proven to be completely unrelated. The 0846 siting mystery is simply its own story that has many facets. I do find interest in this story, and that is why I suggest that it be discussed in a separate thread. Because discussing it here falsely leads unknowing readers to assume that it has something to do with DP003, which it clearly does not.
     
  11. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
    To the point. Brilliant!
     
  12. GBTR6

    GBTR6 Karting

    Dec 29, 2011
    231
    Titletown, USA
    Full Name:
    Perry Rondou
    #10286 GBTR6, May 25, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
    Agreed.

    But Memory after 40 years is just one aspect. The other issue is that even a skilled medical student is in the first semester simply not able to make a proper diagnosis upon a lack of knowledge and experience. Dedicated youngsters are a delight and highly welcomed from most enthusiasts. Joining, educating and sharing yes. But inviting an eighteen years old to ‘examine’ some ultra-rare P4 chassis and its paperwork when heavy weights like Piper and Sbarro are around? Statements have to be considered in this light, because obviously no photos or other information is available, except some Sbarro report, Ferrari’s confirmation that 0846 is no more and that no trace of any ‘Cervan Corporation’ can be found. But again, all this has nothing to do with DP0003. It is a different frame and not connected to the late 0846 as we have all seen. But maybe this could be an input to the soon coming "The (one and only) chassis at Sbarro's Debate Thread" … ?
     
  14. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  15. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
  16. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    409
  17. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    5,556
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    What 330 P4 was offered in December 1969 in Vienna, Austria?
     
  18. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    5,556
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    Autocar 1967 & 1968
    Motor Revue 1967 & 1968
    Nothing on Mugello either
    But it cant be because Classiche said: Mugello test did not happen.
    No eventual use after Le Mans.
    There is a new directior at Classiche: Luigino Barp
     
  19. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    5,556
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    1977 Swiss sighting can now be "disconnected" from 0003 story.
    Jim has pictures of a built car from Piper (1974)

    What is left otherwise than a frame built by Cantelli?
     
  20. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,555
    Phoenix AZ
    Full Name:
    Justin
    also according to MM he said the paperwork said 08460 not 0846
     
  21. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    5,556
    Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    That is a third frame (but as we do not have photos it could be from another P car using ID 0846

    0900 finished in 1979
    0003 in 1974 as per Piper/Jims paperwork and photographic evidence.
    1977 another frame + some body parts but this is not 0003
     
  22. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,555
    Phoenix AZ
    Full Name:
    Justin
    I agree that it is not 003
     
  23. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
    5,991
    Full Name:
    Juan
    Jim, check this out 10,294 replies, and 586,157 views. Make a movie about this, I think it would be interesting, and you can write the ending, or just leave it open ended. You've made movies before why not this? I'll buy a ticket! And you already have the star....saw it at Amelia.

    Today 09:30 AM
    by technom3 Go to last post
    10,294
    586,157
     
  24. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,555
    Phoenix AZ
    Full Name:
    Justin

    hell id buy a ticket! Id love to see more and more footage of 0846 racing!
     
  25. damian in nj

    damian in nj Formula Junior

    Aug 24, 2009
    683
    David Piper is the subject of a story in the 70th Anniversary Ferrari Special issue of Classic & Sportscar now on bookstore shelves, and he says this while being interviewed by author Simon Taylor.
    "The P3 had bodywork just like the P4 but a bit narrower, and a two-valve engine on carburetors rather than the P4's three valves and fuel injection. Ferrari made just two P4s, and then a third for Can-Am. David McKay in Australia bought that together with enough spares-engine, gearbox, all the running gear-to make a fourth.

    He sold it all to Paul Hawkins and when Paul was killed I bought the lot. All I needed was a chassis, so I went to Ferrari and asked the Old Man if he'd make me the fourth P4 chassis. 'Per il nostro Piper, si certo!' (Of course, for our Piper)."

    That's all the content related to this thread in the story, but since it seemed relevant I thought I'd share.
     
  26. JAM1

    JAM1 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2004
    1,696
    US
    Full Name:
    Joe
    #10299 JAM1, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
    And for the timeline, I believe McKay purchased his can-am car in Nov/Dec 1967 - presumably with the spares Piper referred to. Not sure when Hawkins purchased "the lot", but he was killed May 1969. Interesting how those dates don't line up with JG's storied history of 0846...
     
  27. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
    1,283
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Art Corvelay
    TBF, its also interesting how what Piper is quoted as saying doesn't quite tally with his actions.

    How many P4 chassis' did the 'old man' give permission for Piper to build again and how many did he build?
     

Share This Page