The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Is this one of those guess the right % and win a prize, if so what do I win lol.

    Conversely I can see how ridiculous it sounds that the car contains the mortal remains (part chassis) of #0846 and yet I would love the story to be true.
  2. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    Although Piper had his various repro chassis made, he also needed a ton of original P3 and P4 components to install into those chassis. Given only a handful of such cars were built and all apart from one exists to this day then no doubt given the rarity of P3/P4 spares, some parts removed from the damaged chassis of 0846 (when Ferrari claimed they dismantled it, prior to scrapping the chassis) probably later ended up with Piper and thus into his various examples of the P4.

    Those parts will be scattered between what? 3 or 4 cars Piper built up?, plus into the originals Piper owned over the proceeding years, so some odds and ends will probably have gone into Piper 003, which Jim later renamed 0846 when he bought it from Piper and road registered it under that new chassis number in New York.

    Probably easier to say what 100% did not come from the original 0846 and that is the engine (F1), gearbox (repro) and bodywork (repro), then it starts to get grey, Piper says the chassis of 003 was 100% new and made for him in Italy, and this was recently verified in another post by another fchatter.

    Jim however states it is based on the original chassis of 0846 and backs up such a claim by speaking on behalf of other people who have seen or worked on his example, none of these people though have never come forward under their own steam and verified such. I believe in law this is classed as hearsay and not legally valid.

    Rather than have Ferrari/Marcel Massini etc officially rubber stamp the car as the original 0846 Jim has been going to various alternative motoring bodies around the globe and having them confirm his car has a chassis ID of 0846. None of these to date however are recognised authorities in verifying historic Ferrari race cars, they just simply confirm that Jim has a car which is registetred in New York with a chassis number of 0846, the number which he had applied post purchase from Piper

    Finally the man who originaly oversaw the construction of Ferrari 0846 and then its demise at Ferrari has swayed in the breeze from one stance to another, and I believe currently states Jims car is not related to the original 0846?

    No other party claims to own any Ferrari with the ID of 0846, although Ferrari never sold such a car on, and claims are made the original chassis tag is still with them.

    Have I missed anything in the above summary?
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  3. Rob Lay

    Rob Lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Owner Miami 2018

    Dec 1, 2000
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    good summary.
  4. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Dave Powers
    I might say excellent summary. Thanks for taking the time to write that, @PAUL500.
  5. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    I try to sit on the fence, so that is just a summary of how I have read things to date. None of the info is mine, so thanks should really go to all those that have done their research on this/these cars and posted there findings, whichever side of the story they believe.

    I believe most people would love it to be the original, but also take on board all the facts so far...
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  6. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

    Apr 5, 2010
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Totally agree, good posts
  7. freestone

    freestone Formula Junior

    Feb 8, 2005
    West Coast USA
    I would probably add that Jim’s explanation of why it is 0846 - and particularly explaining discrepancies in the chassis - has evolved over time in response to clear inconsistencies with period photographs. Inevitably, it was a “rebuild” after an accident, in one case an accident in a race the car was not entered in.

    Further, the builder is Italian and as he vacant more familiar and the language more specific, his disagreeing this was 0846 became unambiguous.
  8. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    from Wikipedia (November 2017)

    412 P
    412 P 0844 at the 2007 Goodwood Festival of Speed.
    The Ferrari 412 P was a "customer version" of the famous 330 P3 race car, built for independent teams like NART (0844), Scuderia Filipinetti (0848), Francorchamps (0850), and Maranello Concessionaires (0854). These cars had carburetor engines instead of the factory Lucas fuel injection. Surviving 412 P cars are worth approximately $35–45 million USD according to Cavallino Magazines' current Buyers Guide.

    There are only two cars that were originally built as 412 P's: 0850 and 0854. P3 chassis. P3 Typo Motors except for Carburetors in place of FI. P4 suspension 0844 and 0848 were originally P3 Factory Racecars but when Ferrari sold them to customers they removed the Lucas Mechanical Fuel Injection and replaced it with Weber carburetors which reduced their output, something Ferrari wanted to do so that they would win points but not beat the factory cars which were then P4 0846 (See Above), P4 0856, P4 0858, and P4 0860.block and is 12mm longer than a P4 The P3's and 412 P had the same 4-liter block which is different from the P4-4 liter block and all had P3 not P4 chassis. All of the P3 chassis were made in 1966 at the same time but because of labor strikes only three of the five P3 chassis were built up into cars in 66. The unbuilt up P3 chassis were eventually build up into 412P 0850 and 0854 in 1967. P4 0846 was unique having, after modification by Ferrari for the 1967 race season, a P3 chassis with a P4 engine.

    The 412 P and P4 models weren't eligible for the International Championship of Makes in 1968 as their engines were too large for the new 3 litre Group 6 Prototype category and too few examples had been built to allow homologation for the 5 litre Group 4 Sports Car category which required production of at least 50 units.[5] Ferrari did not contest the championship for a year in protest.

    Two 412 P Berlinettas were originally built. Two P3's were converted to 412P's by Ferrari:

    • 0844 was a converted by Ferrari from a P3 to a 412 P, then by Ferrari and NART to an open barchetta 330 Can Am, and is currently in Germany fitted with a replica Berlinetta 412 P body.
    • 0848 was a converted by Ferrari from a P3 to a 412 P and is currently in Switzerland.
    • 0850 was at one time converted for road use as a spyder but was later fitted with a replica Berlinetta body and is currently owned by an American.
    • 0854 was heavily burned out and "virtually destroyed" at a race in East London, S.A. 1969 when it had an open/barchetta GRP body fitted to it. The remains were rebuilt, again as an open barchetta and then further rebuilt into a 412P esque shape as a Spyder and used on the road. It has now been returned to Berlinetta configuration, as it was originally, and is currently in American ownership.
    1967 was a banner year for the Enzo Ferrari motor company, as it saw the production of the mid-engined 330 P4,[6] a renowned V12 endurance car meant to replace the previous year's P3. Only four Ferrari P4-engined cars were ever made: three new 330 P4s and one ex P3 chassis (0846). Their three-valve cylinder head was modeled after those of Italian Grand Prix-winning Formula One cars. To this was added the same fuel injection system from the P3 for an output of up to 450 hp (335 kW).

    The P3 won the 1000 km Monza in 1966, and the P4 won the same race in 1967. Two P4s, and one 412 P electrified the racing world when they crossed the finish line together (in first 0846, second 0856, and third place 0844) in the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona, for a photo finish to counter Ford's photo of the Ford GT40 Mk.II crossing the finish line together First, Second, and Third at the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans.

    Since then, the fate of these four legendary cars has been the subject of much attention.

    • 0846's number was cancelled by Ferrari after it was decided by the factory to discard the chassis to the Ferrari scrapyard due to its previous accident history and fire damage sustained at Le Mans, 1967. A replica 1967 Ferrari P4 has existed with a US legal identity 0846 since 2002. The original chassis number has been written off Ferrari's books as an existing chassis, but the number is still in their ownership.
    • 0856 was originally built as a Berlinetta but converted by the factory into a Spyder for Brands Hatch, 1967 as it remains today. Currently in Canadian ownership.
    • 0858 was originally a Berlinetta but converted by Ferrari into a Spyder for Brands Hatch, 1967 and later in the year converted into a 350 Can-Am by them. Now fitted with a P4 Berlinetta body and is in German ownership.
    • 0860 was also originally a Berlinetta and converted to a Spyder for Brands Hatch, 1967 and like 0858 converted by Ferrari to a 350 Can-Am but was fitted with a P4 Spyder body in the early 1970s by its then French owner in whose family it remains today.
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  9. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    So someone from NY area (Rye) changed wiki....
    Knowing 0846 is owned by an LLC.

    On wiki 0846 becomes REAL.....

    Just check out Ferrari P on Wiki
  10. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie

    Oct 16, 2007
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    Quite disheartening to see the lengths to which he will go to perpetuate this falsehood. The prior statement was far more neutral.
  11. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Ego sometimes has no bounds...

    The part I find distasteful is that Jim used to be a very vocal critic of people and cars that had questions attached to them. He tried so hard to seem impartial and to “let the metal speak”...but his actions are extremely hypocritical.

    It’s interesting it says owned by an LLC...while technically correct, 99+ out of 100 would say it’s owned by JG. To me that’s a pretty clear indication of who is making these edits on Wikipedia.
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  12. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    Here is an album of pictures I took at Piper's workshop more than 20 years ago of the cars we call 0900 and the incomplete 0900a. Feel free to examine, contrast and compare with JG's car and the no-question P4s.

    Paul M
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  13. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    Full Name:
    Tom Wiggers
    Good news or bad news?

    Mr Keith Bluemel never got an email/letter from Ferrari SpA that 0846 was used AFTER Le Mans 1967.
    Whoever claimed this frame “FOR EVENTUAL USE” is wrong.
    Mugello crash did not happen (but we all know that already)
  14. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

    Mar 29, 2007
    Phoenix AZ
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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Really? I would say that the opposite is true if the following is anything to go by. Over 2 years later we are still waiting for the Ferrari documented confirmation.

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  16. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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    Jan 10, 2009
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    Simon Ashley
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #10342 miurasv, Sep 19, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
    It is an absolute classic old chestnut that one isn't it!
  18. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2002
    New Orleans
    Full Name:
    John William H.
    #10343 johnhoughtaling, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018

    My comments are about his 003 and 004. MuiraSV is constantly following Jim G, searching out threads to troll him over his claim to 0846, Just stop, it’s a drag. There’s a 0846 forum for this, so go there and continue as many have for the past decade.

    Im just enjoying being a car enthusiast. The agendas and egos take away from it. I’m happy to share my first hand experiences with 004 on this page. But if there are going to be left field pot shots by MuiraSV about Jim G, constantly, I will just stop.

    Sent from my iPhone using mobile app
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  19. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
    Advising Moderator

    Jul 20, 2003
    Full Name:
    Dirty Harry

    Many years ago, multiple threads were consolidated into one 0846 Thread.

    That specific thread is where 0846 Posts belong. This is not that thread.

    "The pheasants are beneath me." - SoCal to az
    "I have very few pet peeves in life . . . " - PeterS
    "Change is inedible" - fc2
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  20. ylshih

    ylshih Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Owner Advising Moderator Honorary

    Mar 21, 2004
    Northern CA
    Full Name:
    Last 5 posts moved here from a different thread. 0846 content belongs ONLY on this thread.

    miurasv given permanent thread ban from the thread where violation occurred.
    showme1946 and wax like this.
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    #10346 miurasv, Sep 24, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    I used the quote simply to demonstrate where Glickenhaus had over promised and under delivered, not to debate DP3/"0846" in another thread and is absolutely relevant to JH's statement of JG under promising and over delivering. He didn't actually deliver anything at all. Does JG get a pardon for all things "0846" related?

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