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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    He upgrades bits on his cars because he uses them on the road. Brakes are safety equipment, and I'm sure he's got more modern, better stuff on there. No big secret. I'm sure he'll give you more details if you ask him on Facebook.
     
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  3. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    But what’s pictured isn’t modern. It’s not upgraded. These are some sort of vintage brakes - just not what was on the factory 0846.
     
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  4. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    If you look at Jim’s .pdf, the calipers pictured (the ones he had rebuilt) appear to be the ones that came with the car. I don’t think it was a change he made. It seems as if they came with the Piper car. The .pdf is a bit convoluted, though...hard to be certain.
     
  5. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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  6. peter5

    peter5 Formula Junior

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    This has been an interesting read. One question I have is why DP0003 differs so significantly from the P3 or P4 chassis’ even though DP had blueprints/factory blessing to make replicas?
     
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  8. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    Maybe he was upgrading the designs after years' experience racing the originals. I don't think he was trying to make a good race car first, a replica second.
     
  9. modena1_2003

    modena1_2003 F1 Rookie

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    Seems like this thread is coming full-circle. :)
     
  10. BoulderFCar

    BoulderFCar F1 Veteran
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    Eureka! I found the teachers edition of this story for those that want to know but weren’t involved earlier.
     
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  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #10359 miurasv, Nov 19, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
    I'm sure Paul wouldn't mind me clarifying a few points in his summary as follows:

    There is no proof that any parts at all from 0846 ended up with David Piper, and Piper has never claimed they did, so they probably didn't. The only original parts from the P3s and P4s that Piper is known to have received were:
    • The body from 0860 (without centre section) via Tom Meade.
    • The spare 0858 P4/350 Can Am engine.
    • The spare 0858 P4 tipo 603R transaxle.
    • 4 spare corners of suspension parts from P4/ 350 Can Am 0858.
    • The 330 P3 tipo 593 transaxle which was NOT from 0846, but actually from 0844, which did end up in Piper's DP0003 that Glickenhaus bought. JG still has this transaxle, but he removed it and had a replica P4 tipo 603R transaxle made by John Hajduk which is now in DP0003.

    Again no proof that any original P4 parts ended up in any of the Piper replicas apart from the P4/350 Can Am 0858 spares listed above that make up his green P4 and the 0844 P3 transaxle that was in DP0003.

    Correct, engine is proven 3 litre 312 F1, NOT 4 litre P4 engine, transaxle is a reproduction, bodywork is reproduction apart from maybe the Spyder rear clam which is claimed to be from P4 0858, but no proof has been shown. Chassis is a proven P4 replica with P4 design details from front to back, NOT P3 design details, and with many differences and variances from the original 0846 chassis and from a real P4 chassis. The engine mountings for the 3 litre 312 F1 engine are mainly bolt on adaptors and the Ferrari Racing Department would never have used that poor solution to mount the engine as confirmed by Ing. Forghieri. Period pictures from Daytona 1967 and Le Mans 1967 prove that the rear section on the real 0846 was totally as a P4. There were no vestigial P3 engine mountings left on the real 0846 when the P4 engine was installed for 1967. The solution used to mount the engine using bolt on adaptors on the fake car actually compromises the rigidity of the chassis.

    Correct.

    I don't believe Ing. Forghieri has actually swayed in the breeze. He was correct about the engine mountings, which is all he commented on first of all saying that Ferrari would never use that solution...... and he did not say either way whether the car was 0846 or not. I'd only asked him to comment on the engine mountings, which he did, as these were JG's main identifying features of the chassis being that of 0846. Later, he saw the car at Amelia Island in 2014 with all its bodywork in place which culminated in the 2016 letters to Mr Glickenhaus whilst also saying the car could not be called 0846. By May of 2016 he'd realised he'd made a mistake and corrected that mistake by his statement referring to the car as a fake P4: ....falsa P4 di Glickenhaus...", which remains his stance on the car today.

    It was also after Ing. Forghieri had determined the car was a fake that I found the pictures of the real 0846 chassis and compared them to JG's chassis that do prove it's a complete fake.

    Correct.

    Answered as above, and I will add that there is not a single part from the real 0846 in James Glickenhaus's proven fake/replica P3/P4, that he still to this day is trying to pass off as the real Ferrari 330 P3/4 #0846, the winner of the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona, driven by Chris Amon and Lorenzo Bandini.
     
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  13. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    All I will say is that Piper has built numerous additional P4 type cars other than those that originally came from Ferrari, and there will have only ever been a finite amount of all the components required to be able to do so, and on that basis, although it cannot be proven either way, the chances are that some of those will have been used in the original 0846 as well as the other p3 and p4s before ending up in DP003. It takes far far more than just a frame, an engine and gearbox and a few bits of bodywork to build a fully working bespoke race car like a p4. Most of those hundreds of little bits and bobs would be unique to those Tipo, and they would be far to numerous and costly to have all been made from scratch.

    Piper was the only one they would have been any use to in the 70s and after gathering dust on the shelves at Maranello it would seem likely with his contacts there that he would the natural one to snap them up as and when they had a clear out.

    With regards MF, let us not forget that photo with him and Jim in it and a supposed signed letter in front of him by MF saying Jims car was the real 0846 which MF only later retracted, hence the swaying in the breeze comment.
     
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  14. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran

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    Bamford, Bardinon, Maede, Cluxton and others bought loads of parts too in the 70/80s
     
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  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Here’s the Readers Digest version:

    Do you believe David Piper, or Jim Glickenhaus?
     
  16. BoulderFCar

    BoulderFCar F1 Veteran
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    I really didn't have any context on this.
    Net, David Piper by a long mile.
     
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  17. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    David has nothing to gain..Jim has a lot to gain.. not that the monetary gain really matters to man of such wealth.
     
  18. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    the gain is nothing monetary.
     
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  19. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    Well for Jim it’s likely money as a minor factor but mainly the story and bragging rights. He does love storytelling…

    On Pipers side it would have most assuredly been monetary gain, and I’m supremely confident if a single piece of 0846 were in the replica he’d have known about it and cashed in however possible. To think he made a mistake selling something potentially valuable was always the dumbest part of the story imo.

    But special appreciation must be given to Steve for his relentless pursuit of the truth, even at the face of ridicule from the zealots and probably numerous attacks by Jim. The comparison photos and research was a valuable contribution to the site, even if he received no compensation for his efforts and did it because it was the right thing for history. Pretty incredible saga all around!
     
  20. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I actually agree with you 100%.

    I don't know for sure and probably never will, it is a far fetched story, but still plausible. However, even best case is a 5% bitsa?
     
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  21. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    True, but gentlemen collectors do not wear out cars, active racers like Piper needed a healthy supply of correct parts to keep their cars going long after they had been retired by Ferrari.

    Jims car is chock full of original period Ferrari components, they had to come from somewhere and off of something for Piper to have been able to construct it and his others to fully working and racing order.
     
  22. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran

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    Piper had many parts copied in period and Piper also used F1 parts that did the job perfectly.
    Piper also states twice to me personally: dp003 has nothing to do with 0846 and Ferrari still owns the chassisnumber (as they never sold the ID/paperwork)
    Chassis was not ex Ferrari in any which way.
     
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  23. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    We all know its a replica chassis and body, with an F1 engine but the myriad of other parts also required are far to numerous and complex to have all been replicated.

    You could not use F1 suspension, brakes, steering etc etc.et they would simply not be strong enough.

    The whole reason Piper had his chassis made in the first place was because he had a mountain of period correct parts, but nothing to put them in.
     
  24. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    so you are saying 0846 is a replica?
     
  25. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    The car Jim calls 0846 was purchased from David Piper, who built it from period correct Ferrari components and a copy chassis and called it 003 and who raced it in P4 specification around the world.

    No one cared what it was called back then, they just loved seeing it in all its glory., doing what did did best, and was designed to do.
     
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  26. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    Thank you Steve. Like many, i have followed this story with interest.

    The "burden of proof" has always been with Glickenhaus, but ... thanks to your extensive research and evidence ... the tables have been turned. It has now been proven, beyond all doubt, that the car claimed to be 0846 is, in fact, a replica (yes, including the chassis).

    Case closed ... as far as I, and many other interested parties, are concerned.
     
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  27. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
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    Case closed ? Yes so true maybe here but Jim has left the building.

    Thanks werewolf
     
  28. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

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    Jim chose to leave the conversation. Revisit parts of this thread and note the timing. As more facts emerged, the defense became more difficult. The easy thing to do was to leave.

    Facts are facts and in this instance there are no victims…just a progression of understanding of what something is and what it is not. Jim’s absence does not affect the truth. Playing the victim does not equal being a victim.

    When Jim did participate on Fchat, he was very fond of saying something to the effect of ‘the metal speaks’…usually when implying that someone’s car was not what they claimed. I would like to see him adopt his own view and let the metal speak.
     

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