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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
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    Yes as facts emerged the defence became more difficult understood . Still a good read and learning process for anyone to understand some old vintage racers and how many were projects pieced together during those times. It was always a puzzle looking and buying vintage racers and cars at that time only memory gave you a conclusion of originality.
     
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  3. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    That is very true about the "no victims" element, Jim knew what he was buying and Piper knew what he was selling, a fair price was no doubt agreed that both were happy with.

    Not that Jim will ever sell, but again any buyer going forward would be fully aware of the back story.

    I think that Jim at the initial viewing simply saw the option for mounting two different types of engines in the chassis, put two and two together and made 0846! of course he was not going to point this out to Piper (thinking he had found a holy grail), where as Piper knew full well the reason for the two engine option, as he had been the one who had the alterations made to suit the various types of Ferrari V12 engines he owned.

    Once Jim went down that rabbit hole of believing it was in fact 0846 the blinkers came on, and he is now far to dug into the claims to acknowledge such.

    He left here as the way the thread was going was out of his control, far easier to manage your audience on facebook etc.

    The good thing is that there is a lovely car out there that people appreciate seeing.
     
  4. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    While I don't care one way or another about the topic vehicle (I'm not into racing cars, real or fakes), but from my perspective the sad reality is that this hounding and subsequent departure of J.G. ended depriving us of all other interesting things he was sharing on this forum.
    What does it matter if the car is real or not, unless a person is in the position to purchase it ?
    If J.G. wants to believe it's real, why should I care ?
    If anything, perhaps Rob & co. ended up just loosing a lot of potential clicks (= $$) J.G.'s future contributions could've continue to produce ?
     
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  5. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    #10379 werewolf, Nov 25, 2021 at 12:53 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 1:01 PM
    The validity, or falsehood, of Glickenhaus' early claims to 0846 impact far, FAR more than his own pocketbook!

    Couple examples (off the top of my head):

    - Given the EXTREME rarity of surviving, authentic 330 P4 cars (maybe only one?), the market value of any other authentic P4 is significantly impacted by the presence, or absence, of another ... one-of-one has a VERY different value proposition, than one-of-two.

    - What about the Glickenhaus heirs, or whomever comes into the possession of this car next? Might they have a strong interest ... financial, certainly, perhaps other as well ... in knowing the authenticity of this car?

    YES, it's quite fair to say that the collector car market has interests in authenticity far beyond Glickenhaus' own personal interests.
     
  6. NunoRosso

    NunoRosso Karting

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    Mr. Glickenhaus had his fair share in his own "demise" in this forum when he (and some of his supporters) started to disparage the work being carried on by David Piper/Talacrest on 0858, perhaps in a way to divert the attention from his own car. But I guess it backfired.
     
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  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, there is more here than your simple analysis. I understand being a cynic. I also under how Rob Lay benefited from this controversy. But that doesn’t change what Jim Glickenhaus did. It’s not just car. There is a lot more to this picture. A lot more.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  9. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    Like I said, I don’t care.
    I was just interested in technical/mechanical aspects of his sharing, but like in so many other things in life, politics (regardless of side) ruined it here.
     
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    The "technical aspects of his sharing." Seriously? He was making it all up.

    Jim Glickenhaus is one of the few people in life I hate. I don't care to get into the back story. I'd rather never hear his name again. If you want to dredge up history, feel free.
     
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  11. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    “Politics” had nothing to do with Jim’s replica nor his departure from this site.
     
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  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #10385 miurasv, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:03 PM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 9:10 PM
    You may not care, but I and many others do care that Ferrari History is not distorted. You're not into racing cars, but, again, I and many others are into racing cars and their history. When somebody comes along and states that they have found a long lost very important car from Ferrari's racing past along with publishing a 140+ page document with the reasons why they believe it to be the case, it's only natural that the contents of that document be scrutinized. When Mr Glickenhaus was questioned on the validity of the claims within that document, he always failed to answer. He was also told of the errors and misquotations in that very flawed document such as those regarding the incorrect P3 2412 mm wheelbase, his incorrect interpretation of the Christian Huet Technical Data Sheets regarding the P4 engine mountings he quoted. That is not hounding someone, but just stating facts as they really are.

    Mr Glickenhaus left of his own accord. His last post in July, 2016 in the link here stated, along with some absolute nonsense and BS technical information about how a P4 engine is mounted in a P3 chassis, that Ferrari thoroughly investigated his car between May and July, 2016 and who confirmed that he has owned Ferrari P4 0846 since 2000 and that he would publish in several months from then those dispositive documents written by Ferrari. He never posted again and he failed to publish the dispositive documents, which was because there were none.

    Yes, he does have some rather nice other cars that are genuine. So what? The information he shared about them was often incorrect. Compare the poor way his 412 P 0854 has been restored to 412 P 0850.

    You just don't get it. It matters a great deal. This is not something that he tells himself and keeps to himself, but he is telling the whole world it's real and he's still saying it in 2021. Listen here. You'd be surprised how many people still believe his nonsense on Facebook and Instagram who have not read this thread.

    What exactly do you mean by the above? Do you think Mr Glickenhaus should have been allowed to carry on with his nonsense without question and those that did question it be banned? As already said, he left of his own accord as he could not answer valid questions.

    If you don't care, why comment? Clearly you have not studied the information posted that proves the chassis is a complete fake from front to back, the transaxle is a reproduction, the engine is a 3 litre 312 F1 engine and the body with not a single section from 0846.

    Like Dale said, he made the technical information up. I'm very surprised, that you, as a supposed Ferrari technician, would not question the technical logic in many of his posts.
     
  14. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    You guys are just waaaaaay too wrapped up into this one car that may or may not be something you approve of.
    Maybe it’s time to unwind a bit and move on ?
    If I recall correctly J.G. had number of other cars and projects he was willing to share here and I for one was happy to see most of it, but then “someone” decided to become holier-than-thou crusader on one of them …
    … so as far as I’m concerned, I ended up loosing because of this childish battle of egos.
     
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  15. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
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    It would be interesting to have 1000+ page threads like this for the hundreds of fakes, copies, recreations, replicas and other butchered chassis out there.
     
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  16. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    You still don't get it.

    The validity of a claim concerning the authenticity of a very rare, very historically-significant Ferrari is WELL worth exploring! If the so-called "crusader" exposed the claim as false ... through facts and evidence ... then this is a HUGE benefit to the community at large.

    We get it ... you were entertained by the posts of the one making the claim (now proven to be false) and miss his presence on this forum. But the only "ego" that has been damaged is Glickenhaus ... while the community as a whole, as well as the collector car market at-large, has benefited by having the truth exposed, for all to see.

    Would it make you feel better, if one of us started a fictional thread about a rare, long-lost Ferrari that we found in a barn? Would the discussion of the validity of any such claim be a waste of time?
     
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  17. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    #10389 TTR, Nov 26, 2021 at 12:07 PM
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021 at 12:14 PM
    Of course I “get it” and already “got it” years ago, but since I didn’t/don’t nor expect to have any horse or financial stake on this car or it’s legitimacy, as I said, I don’t care.
    Besides the world and “communities” in it have much more important issues which don’t directly affect my everyday life nor can I effectively change them, so I just view them with curiosity at best.
    I can only assume some might feel vindicated or perhaps even victorious over the insignificance of this particular “debate”, but whatever rocks your boat, I guess.

    P.S. I’m fairly sure I’ve never considered nor referred myself as a “technician”, but if it helps someone sleep better, who am I to disagree with their opinion or view of me ?
     
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  18. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    #10390 TTR, Nov 26, 2021 at 12:09 PM
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021 at 12:19 PM
    I doubt some of the individuals on this thread could handle that many victories. ;)

    Which brings up another question.
    If this “debate” is considered conclusive, why hasn’t it been moved to “Recreation & Non-Period Rebodies” section ?
     
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  19. werewolf

    werewolf F1 Veteran
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    Fair enough ... you may never be in the market for a 330 P4, or any other historic racing Ferrari, so you, personally, couldn't care less about the authenticity of this particular car.

    But can you at least understand why a large number of Ferrari enthusiasts might have a legitimate interest into whether or not this car really is, or isn't, an authentic P4?

    Even if there are other "larger" concerns (starvation, COVID, etc etc) in the world??
     
  20. fasthound

    fasthound Formula Junior
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    Damn….do we really need this kind of pissing contest on this forum? Really?
     
  21. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
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    I agree; why has this thread not been moved? Those who wish to can continue the debate ad infinitum....on the other thread. "Only one click away" :D
     
  22. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Rookie
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    I suspect this thread hasn’t been moved to “Recreation and Non-Period Rebodies” because it represents the most egregious example of a replica trying to be passed off as the genuine article. If this thread were relegated to the recreation section then those casual readers not tuned in to that specific sub-section would never be aware of the muddied history of DP003. When you consider the extraordinary lengths Jim has taken both using his financial resources as well as the credibility of his other authentic cars to revise history including representing his fake as ‘0846’ to interviewers, bloggers, social media platforms, not to mention countless publications both electronic and in print, this Fchat thread represents a critical public rebuttal and deserves to be left at the forefront of the “Vintage” section.
     
  23. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    The existence of this thread guarantees that car can never be sold or auctioned as an original.
     
  24. polds

    polds Rookie

    Aug 17, 2005
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    The truth has been outed and that's the end of it.

    Sage counsel has endured despite the not inconsiderable attacks. I think Jim should come back.

    **** happens! We all get entangled in our own minds. We've all done it.

    Jim's passion is the old man's metal. Let's all swallow our pride and have a beer. Doesn't the world need a bit of love right now?
     
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  25. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    One thing to note is that Marcel quickly jumps on any thread in this section where the car is, or turns out to be a copy, suggesting it is swiftly moved to the appropriate sub section, if you check back through all 416 pages (anyone that bored!) then you will find that has yet to happen.

    Cue someone posting the pics of him sat in the car with a huge grin on his face :D
     
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  26. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    However, if you look deeper which posts he likes...

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  27. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

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    My interpretation is that the jury is still out on the matter in his view, at this point in time.
     
  28. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    whether agnostic and doubtful or afraid of legal repercussions, there really aren't any reasons for many like Marcel to post on it. Lack of posts probably doesn't mean the jury is out, they just don't want to be publicly in the jury.
     
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