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The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    #10501 JAM1, Dec 12, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
    The numbered steering wheel from 0846 is apparently in private hands. If it’s owner bought a Norwood replica and bolted that single part on the replica could he claim it as 0846? I ask because the reality is he’d have one more documented part from the authentic car than Glikenhaus has thus far. :D

    In all seriousness the premise a replica (particularly a car represented and sold as a fake including a bill of sale which is a legal contract signed by the seller) is actually not a replica until it’s scientifically proven to not be the actual car has got to be the most bizarre sycophantic argument to date.
     
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  3. werewolf

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    #10502 werewolf, Dec 12, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
    Couldn't agree more.

    That's why i keep going back to the Norwood analogy: I buy a replica, bought and sold as a replica, but then claim it to have "royal heritage". Somehow, in the minds of some, simply because of my claim ... it's not fully accepted as a "replica" until it's PROVEN to be a replica?? That's beyond bizarre.

    And YES, the analogy is valid ... because of Steve's research, there's no more legitimacy to Glickenhaus' claims on Piper's DP003, than my claims on the Norwood car.

    Again, the burden of proof rests with Glickenhaus ... not only has the burden not been met, there's not even a shred of proof remaining!
     
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  4. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #10503 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    I really doubt he cares to anymore. When is the last time you saw him on here? I think you just answered your own question there Ace.

    He does not, agreed. The claims are unproven, agreed. But again, not proven false conclusively. Neither side IMO has provided evidence that would stand up to cross examination in court that has conclusively proved that either way. What has been made public are pieces of the timeline, but there are huge gaps in the timeline where any of the current pictures may no longer be valid in either case.

    No it is simply unproven. As I said before the evidence in either direction is insufficient. For either to definitively prove their opinion, they need to dig deeper. Pipers story is still a mystery. The "experts" have changed where the chassis was manufactured how many times? There is barely any history of the building of the car and it's life between said manufacture. Without that information as well as other, there are huge gaps in the story. As far as JG burden of proof, I don't think he cares. I think he had enough of being attacked and moved on.

    Again. There has been no response. Either because he knows Steve is right. Or he just doesn't care to be bothered with the aggression. Yes, if I was him and cared as much as you claim he does, I would oppose Steve's questions. But after years of having to go through all this BS I'd probably leave those that can't have a civil discussion behind.

    Again. The full history of the Norwoods are known. I'm am in no way saying this car is 0846. But even as 0003 there are massive gaps in it's history and construction. Pretty sure Norwood keeps the customer pretty updated throughout the build. I had a friend that had one. Pretty sure regular pictures and correspondence were communicated throughout the build. So Piper kept no records or pictures of these builds? Does he have anything to say about why his cars don't match the factory blue prints? Who cares what that knowledge proves either way? It's interesting history to be preserved at the very least.

    People always bring up the "burden of proof" That only matters if the person cares to prove it. My guess is he doesn't care as much as you think he does anymore. Where is he banging down the doors lately to prove it? Seeing that he has such a thirst for it? From what I've seen lately, Steve is really the only one that cares that deeply about it. Seems like Glick has moved on and doesn't incessantly need to prove it as everybody claims. At least in this arena.
     
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  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Not even remotely true.

    Glickenhaus started this fight. He left when it became obvious he lost.
     
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  6. Vincent Vangool

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    #10505 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    I do acknowledge that Steve relentless pursuit has adde
    I find it interesting that Marcel Massini is willing to give a thumbs up on posts, which I assume means he agrees with them, but yet wont publicly address why he does. IMO, if you're going to agree with something publicly, then you should be able to publicly explain why. Just as Jim should address why he still believes this to be 0846 if he wants people to believe him, I feel Marcel should be able to explain why he agrees with certain posts. IMO, if you're going to throw your hat in the ring with a like, then be willing to explain why you agree with what is being said or IMO the proper thing is to stay out of the kitchen.

    To each their own but from where I come from, you either put your foot in the water or you don't.
     
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  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Mr. Glickenhaus has shown a propensity to sue people who disagree with him. Why bother if you don't have a dog in a fight?
     
  9. werewolf

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    Glickenhaus cared A LOT before he started to meet any factual resistance based on research and evidence ... only then, did he leave.

    It is simply incorrect to somehow "equate" both sides, as each having the same "burden of proof". Only ONE side has something to prove, if he wants his claims to be believed ... by anyone at all (something he surely cared about, through hundreds of pages in this thread, and still cares about, through channels where open debate is not possible).

    Glickenhaus is the one who needs to prove his case, period. Based on all of Steve's research, Glickenhaus has FAILED ... dramatically. He didn't fail to prove his claims because he's not interested ... HUNDREDS of pages in this thread prove that assertion to be flat wrong. He failed to prove his claims ... claims of INTENSE interest to him on facebook and youtube ... because ALL available evidence proves his claims to be without merit.

    The car is a replica. You can certainly "believe" what you want ... but the evidence Steve has presented is not in the realm of "belief" or "opinion".

    The car is a replica ... it was sold as a replica, purchased as a replica, and there's not an ounce of surviving evidence to even indicate ... much less prove ... otherwise.
     
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  10. Vincent Vangool

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    #10508 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
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    So he has a lawsuit against Steve? What lawsuits has he filed in regards to 0846? I do believe if you can verify what you believe to be true, then you have nothing to worry about.

    I believe that as one of the most highly regarded and credible Ferrari historians out there, once you've put your foot in the water, you know have a dog in the fight. Just as Steve has a dog in the fight to debunk Jim's claims.
     
  11. Vincent Vangool

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    #10509 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
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    Again, JG only has to prove his case if he cares to as well as to who he wants to. Not sure if he cares if everyone believes his claim and wants to deal with the noise. I would guess this is part of why JG cared A LOT before and doesn't really seem to care that much in the last couple of years.

    I also can see the very real possibility of him not answering due to he now knows the chassis is 0003.

    Does anyone have any confirmation that JG has looked at any of Steve's research since he stopped posting at FChat? Or is this just an assumption?
     
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  13. Vincent Vangool

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    I believe that as one of the most highly regarded and credible Ferrari historians out there, once you've put your foot in the water and confirmed a belief you have, you now have a dog in the fight. Just as Steve has a dog in the fight to debunk Jim's claims. I think if you're going to do that, then there should be an explanation as to why if you want people to find your belief credible. Just as Jim should further explain why he believes the overwhelming points against his belief it's 0846 are not correct.

    No one is taking a Massini report that just gives a thumbs up. The reports are valuable due to the information in them that backs up why Marcel believes it to be so.
     
  14. werewolf

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    Apparently, Glickenhaus still cares A LOT on facebook, youtube, etc ... yes, he is still quite motivated to convince an audience about the truth of his claims!!!! And why not? It would be in his best interest, to convince everyone that his chassis is authentic 0846!

    Problem is, here on Fchat, he meets wayyyyyy too much evidence to the contrary.

    His claims, therefore, remain unproven ... and the car itself, therefore, remains a replica.

    It's not complicated. It's not "layered in nuance". It's quite simple, actually.
     
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  15. tritone

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    @werewolf and @Vincent Vangool LOL! You 2 have waaay too much free time on your hands!
    On a resurrected 10 year old (?) thread, in the absence of anything remotely like new information, and lacking the presence of the main protagonist, you guys are endlessly thrashing each other (and a couple of bystanders).....and you're both (seemingly) on the same side of the argument!!!!!


    ...and the even worse tragedy of course, is that, like passing by the scene of an accident, I keep checking in to see if any new information has been related.....but no.....:oops:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. werewolf

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    Fair enough!

    I'm out, for now ...
     
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  17. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    What's your angle? You've been on FerrariChat a while. Have you just discovered this thread?
     
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  18. TTR

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    #10515 TTR, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    ???

    There’s couple of old wisdoms (I'm paraphrasing) which could be applicable here*:
    "If/when you find yourself in a hole, perhaps you should consider stop digging."
    ... and ...
    "If you repeated it enough times, they and/or yourself will start believing it."

    It does seem quite obvious and, at least to me, has been for loooong time, that like so often in politics, religion and even scientific research, some contributors (and their followers/supporters) get so blinded by and embedded in their own beliefs/faith they can't/won't see, let alone accept, alternative view points or contradictions in their own, so there's no point of trying to spoon feed them any, as they will just refuse to (dispassionately) consider their own "evidence" being possibly flawed, even if some appear to be so at very basic levels**, but instead, choose to attack any messenger(s) even suggesting such possibility.

    Or to put this "debate", or can we say debacle of a thread, differently, perhaps it should now be looked as having loooong ago morphed into sort of a "David and Goliath"-story, except in which David, to a much delight of his fans, started throwing countless rocks or whatever he believed/thought of as such toward Goliath, but instead of knocking the big guy down, it all just lead to latter walking away, infuriating David (& his peeps ?), who wanted to be seen and present himself as "The Winner" or "The guy who knocked Goliath down" on his resume.

    Besides, unlike some, I have nothing to gain or prove by spoon feeding contradictions in presented "evidence" regarding the subject of this "debate".

    And if it’s sooooo important for some here to be on the “right” side of this debacle/debate, rather than continue presenting the same old, same old biased/emotional views, why couldn't Mr. R. and/or his supporters pool resources to hire an unilaterally acceptable/recognized, third-party, impartial, no vested interest, "forensics investigator/expert" (specializing in evidence presentation with no hands-on experience on race cars or their construction necessary) to prove/validate it all being indisputable/unchallengeable ?
    Just a thought.

    * Yes, I understand both could apply to each side of the "debate".

    ** While I’m admittedly not highly educated nor have degrees in law or forensics, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone halfway experienced/intelligent individual with both or either could easily find severe insufficiencies in some or many of Mr. R's "evidence" (since I, even as “clueless” and “uninformed” I am, can see many).
    Perhaps one could use this "debacle" as a "litmus test" before hiring a legal counsel to represent ones interests ?
     
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  19. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    Equivalent to GTO money "special."
     
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  20. miurasv

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    #10517 miurasv, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
    As you have yet again failed to post any, let's hear at least one (or as many as you like) of the many severe insufficiencies and flaws in my evidence that you state there are.
     
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  21. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    OFF TO IGNORE LAND WITH YOU -- CLICK!

    Damn that felt good.
     
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  22. TTR

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    OK, I’ll give you one or maybe two.

    How many photographs you presented as “evidence” have you personally taken and/or verified as actually being from the claimed subject in them ?

    OR

    For how many “in period” or other photos have you secured a written affidavit (verifying VINs, time and location, etc), signed by the original photographer, to be of the actual (claimed) subject in them ? All, none, some ?

    And please, don’t resort to childish notion referencing to any shared by J.G., since if you believe all his claims and stories to be false, why would you trust his pictures ?

    Being such a clever detective, I imagine you can figure out more on your own or with help from others.
     
  23. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    I never understood how someone could be the type that believed the earth could be flat. This type of retort gets me a little closer…
     
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  24. Vincent Vangool

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    Nothing Nefarious.

    Would be nice to see people being comfortable enough to come here and discuss their views. Not having to fear the repercussions of posting what they know or their POV here. Instead of being attacked, be able to learn more about this car that many consider #0003 at this point.

    I mean this for JG as well as the cabaret of characters we always hear about, that know it's not the chassis, but we never hear from.

    Piper and the P years are the stuff of the true-est legends IMO. People talk about the value of this car, the Piper story alone is value to me if it were to be sold. I'm gonna guess there is some soap opera value as well.

    I guess this vitriol has it's root in Pipes and Jim. I just think if we want a real discussion, maybe the know it all attitudes have to go. If there's any bad blood, IMO, that should stay with Piper and Jim so whoever wants to post here will feel free to and that it's worthwhile for them to do so.

    I have to be honest with you. I wouldn't waste my time on this crap if it were my car. And I prob wouldn't post if I were some other guy that had to deal with similar crap just for getting involved.
     
  25. polds

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    No way.

    Steve is interested in the truth. Is clearly no fan of JG spinning some BS yarn and as expected watching the fan boys lap it up.

    Steve has proven that the chassis is a fake. The motor is F1 and the other parts come from here, there and everywhere.

    Steve has been battered over the years and stood firm.

    Some see Steve as a bit petty but he was DETERMINED to prove that this machine is an imposter. I salute his resolve.

    It's cost JG several millions of dollars but **** happens!
     
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  26. polds

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    Glick has moved on because Steve has properly had the drains up.

    He's not realistically going to come back to be humiliated and eaten alive. You make out that Jim is not bothered. Yeah right!

    He's reading this thread and cannot add anything. I'd hang back too to be honest.
     
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  27. Vincent Vangool

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    I'm not looking to get into it, but I think it's pretty obvious Steve took offense to the way Jim discussed Pipes in the 0858 thread, then turned that up to 11 in the 0846 thread. IMO that fight is between JG and Pipes. No one else. I think Steve's addition of research is a great resource as well as effort. But I fell if he were to have handled it differently, there would be a better chance to have had a real discussion. No matter how much beating Steve took, it wasn't due to he was a innocent party. Steve threw his gloves in the ring, as many of us did, instead of sitting at a table, And I think logic dictates that JG had been taking it from the fanboys much longer than Steve.

    It would be super cool, if people were just in it to dig up more info on the Piper P4's, then a be all end all replica or not battle deluxe. JMO.
     
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  28. Vincent Vangool

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    #10525 Vincent Vangool, Dec 13, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021

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