The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Indeed

Stephen Hawking proved, with the full weight of a mathematical theorem, that if General Relativity is correct ... then the Big Bang happened, for sure.
.... yet there are those who "cry foul", because Hawking "wasn't there"

Isaac Newton proved that ocean tides are caused by lunar gravity ... even though, by all accounts, Newton never once visited the ocean.

For those who think that driving a car somehow bolsters its authenticity ... you might want to rethink your opinion.

 

But wait! This is the Internet. You know that place where anybody can self identify as an expert!

 

Come on now, you’re just being a party pooper.
I’ve been following this thread for years and while various points have been made, I have seen plenty of conjecture and hyperbole,...
... but still nothing mounting to concrete evidence or proof for this debate being over or settled.

Besides, some master debaters seem to need an outlet for their angst and obsessions, even if it's over something pointless or leading to self-destruction/-humiliation of respect they might've enjoyed years ago.

I imagine it’s part of the human nature for spectators to find some entertainment or guilty pleasure(?) watching someone in blind rage continually, post after post, year after year, digging themselves deeper or igniting their self-immolation regardless of how many encouragements or suggestions of “stop before it’s too late” being offered.
You know, sort of like watching a pending train wreck in slow motion or peering into a severe car crash on the highway and thinking “Wow ! I’m sure glad that’s not me.” or “I hope I never become like that”.
But some people just can’t help themselves. Ask any psychiatrist.




OTOH, Rob & Co. are probably happy, as all this keeps them clicks coming …

 

I have no problem with MiuraSV continuing this thread.

I find it fascinating. I consider the P4 to be not only the most stunning Ferrari of all time but most beautiful car of all time. It's brutal yet sensuous. In my eyes it trumps the GTO, the SWB, the 50's Barchetta's.

It's disgruntling to observe a replica being masqueraded as the real deal. It's an audacity that grates one's general disposition.

 

Exactly and not to mention thinly veiled ominous threats directed at those who dare to counter or question :

 

I hope some of these smug comments involve a nice long look in the mirror. Some posters are more guilty of their own accusations than those they are accusing.

 

Ferrari’s letter saying it destroyed 0846 is inconvertible evidence that Glickenhaus’s car is not 0846. It doesn’t come any more solid than that.

 

Exactly, including those who have never driven, worked on, let alone owned Sports Prototype cars, but claim "expertise" after reading comments or viewing photos, which may or may not show the claimed subject in them ...

I also tend to think comparing such "experts" (with unhealthy obsessions to something quite meaningless) to likes of Einstein, Hawking or Newton is beyond a stretch.

So then why do some continue to "argue" their (allegedly) "solid"(?) case, instead of having walked away years ago with their head up like true gentlemen ? Insecurities or ...?

Actually, I don't care why.
As I said, it can, at times, be entertaining to watch a train wreck, but this one seems to go on and on and ...

 

Can’t say. Maybe because Glickenhaus is obsessed with trying to prove his car is 0846. I’m thinking if he gave it up, this thread would finally die.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Funny, but I wouldn’t quit your day job.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Spot on. The only "obsession" i see, is the one removed from meaningful debate on the topic.

Wonder why?

 

Owning and driving a replica don't make it any more "authentic"

The owner of the replica in question surely doesn't consider it's alleged authenticity to be "something quite meaningless" ... does he?

Or ... is it your position that once the owner declares it to be "authentic", then all arguments to the contrary become "meaningless"?

Let's be honest, now ...

 

Again, if you take Ferrari's letter as the definitive answer, i.e., 0846 was destroyed, there are two presumptions Mr. Glickenhaus would have to overcome to even have shot at claiming the chassis he brought, which by his own admission was DP003, is 0846:

1. Somebody stole the chassis from Ferrari's dumpster and delivered it to David Piper's garage, and

2. David Piper later sold a real P4 chassis to Jim Glickenhaus instead of DP003.

Frankly, Presumption 1 is doable. Things were different back in the '60s. There were no computers, and nobody had any idea these old race cars would become so valuable. So, yeah, I can see someone pinching the chassis and somehow getting it to David Piper's garage.

Presumption 2? NFW. I have never met Mr. Piper and probably never will. I know of him by his reputation, which is he may be the number one P4 expert in the world, even more than Jim Glickenhaus. The odds of him selling a real P4 chassis instead of a reproduction are the same as dividing by zero. I know some of you don't understand this chassis thing. But in old Ferraris, particularly old Ferrari race cars, the chassis is the car. You can start with a tach needle, but if you have the chassis, the end result is the real thing.

Steve drills down further, a lot further. Frankly, the level of detail makes my eyes glaze over. If if were me, I'd rest my case on the fact Ferrari said it threw away the 0846 chassis and thus the car no longer exists. The only plausible case for Jim Glickenhaus is to say (1) somebody stole the chassis and got it David Piper, and (2) David Piper mistakenly sold it to Jim Glickenhaus instead of a reproduction chassis.

I rest my case, your honor.

 

I’m old enough to remember when a very proud Glik posted a letter he received from Forghieri, who he referred to as an absolute expert on the subject (and I would agree), saying after a “tourists glance” at the car he thought it was a heavily modified original chassis from 0846. Photos of the letter joyously being held up as final and definitive proof by an engineer who was there and who was the final word on the matter we’re posted far and wide (where’d those all go?). Of course we all know later on that very same incontrovertible source had a more thorough examination and called the car a fake. Period. No question.

At this point let’s leave Steve completely out of the equation. Odd isn’t it, how Glik hung his hat on Mario Forghieri‘s word, until of course it said his car is a fake. Odd how an expert’s word isn’t enough for the beliebers when it went against JG. I suppose Forghieri was wrong too… just had some axe to grind with Glick. Right?

Give us a break.

 

I have mentioned this before but the real crux of the matter came when Jim and his mechanic inspected the car at Pipers. Jim himself highlighted such and the subsequent turn of events.

They went there purely to buy a non factory Piper continuation car, built up from many original components.

They noted on inspection the option that this particular chassis could take two different types of Ferrari engine, knew the story of 0846 being also modified in period for such when it was converted from a P3 to a P4. They probably thought him a daft old fool not to realise such, kept quiet and snapped up the replica for replica money.

However had they actually asked him about such, he would have told them the crudely carried out modification was so that he could run two types of Ferrari V12 engines he had access to, when he raced the car.

Piper has since confirmed who made the chassis for him originally, and its auction paperwork shows the facts regarding the engines used during its race career.

Having owned virtually all the run of these cars over the years as well as many other rare race Ferrari and Porsche, does anyone truly believe Piper and his mechanics never ever noticed that the chassis in question had been roughly chopped about. Of course not, as they were the ones who had done it! it was an old race car that needed to be kept competitive, not a show car to grace the lawns of some fancy country club event.

 

When a person owns numerous high powered sports car from decades past and has the audacity to actually maintain and drive MANY miles in them, it makes them and their team infinitely more qualified to determine which tyres are safe and suitable for driving on real roads with real speed limits. Leave the armchair experts who have never driven a single mile in such vehicles, to their dreams, delusions, vendettas and google search results in place of actual first hand knowledge.

I take an experienced driver's word over what is safe than someone who spends their time in a very different seat. Happy driving!

 

Spot on. This is my second presumption. Assuming what was left of 0846 made it to Piper's shop, what are the odds of Piper being a "daft old fool?"

 

But you can't specify what the conjecture and hyperbole is. Okay, what hyperbole? Of course, you will not answer, as you have never been able to produce any when asked previously and you have never been able to challenge a single technical aspect of the evidence I have posted.

This debate is settled for most contributors, but there are a small minority of people like you, who refuse to see with your blinkered eyes, or who are trolls.

The above fits you like a bespoke Savile Row made suit.

You forget that to most contributors who have seen the evidence I have posted, Mr Glickenhaus's car is a proven fake, whereas before, only a very few contributors accepted that it was a fake. Many of the posters who disagreed with me and made insults against me are nowhere to be seen now. They know who they are and do not post in this thread anymore.

Are you jealous of the fact that it wasn't you who did the hard work to do the research by studying the extremely difficult to get sight of factory chassis drawings, contacting and communicating at length with the actual designer of the car, contacting David Piper, communicating with world famous Ferrari Historians, as well as seeking out with great difficulty a technically minded former owner of one of these Ferrari prototypes, then post the evidence I have collated, and with which I have changed so many people's points of view?

Again, the above describes you perfectly, and I will never become like you.

No, you can't help yourself it seems so perhaps take your own advice regarding the psychiatrist.

I have not threatened anyone. I was merely pointing out that some people are not the experts they deem themselves to be, and some could take their advice to their detriment, but you had to twist it.

Every photograph I have posted with a chassis number is PROVABLY that car with that chassis number. Many of those photographs took years of perseverance to find.

I have driven, and bought and sold many classic and supercars in my life, which include Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Aston Martin and Porsche in my capacity as a car salesman of those type of cars. How many sports prototypes have you owned then? I have never claimed to be an expert, but it has been said to me by several people/Fchatters that your posts just reek of jealousy that you do not have the knowledge that I have. Knowledge is power, of which you clearly have neither, and certainly no knowledge whatsoever in the subject of Ferrari prototypes.

No insecurities here.

 

That could be, but look at how many supposed crushed concepts and "found" cars exist when they shouldn't. Strange things happen.

Perry

 

How do you know they're ancient? They still make them don't they. Also, most states prohibit slick tires for public roads. So, you have to run treaded tires.

Perry

 

Clearly, presumption one, that somebody pinched the 0846 chassis is doable.

Presumption two that David Piper sold Jim Glickenhaus a real P4 chassis instead of a reproduction is not.

 

Whether the real Ferrari #0846 chassis may still exist is just not relevant to this debate anymore, as the pictures I've posted absolutely prove the JG/Piper DP003 chassis is not the Ferrari #0846 chassis. It is completely different to the real #0846 chassis.

Those very Avon tyres were on DP003 when Mr Glickenahus bought it in 2000 as were the Avon tyres when he bought 0854 in 2005, so yes they are ancient, unsafe and had been for years.

FYI the correct Goodyear and Firestone tyres for these cars were treaded.

True about Piper being no fool who would never have sold a real P3 chassis as a replica, but, again, that is not relevant to this debate anymore as the JG/Piper DP003 P4 replica chassis is provably NOT the real Ferrari #0846 chassis by the many differences shown in the pictures.

 

And you're 100% certain they are the same, and not some newer ones? OK if you were there. Still the Goodrich tires work and are all that is needed. Too bad they don't look right I guess.

Perry