The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I repeat:

I for one am getting close to asking Jim to destroy the bloody car so we can move on.

For God's sake everybody please wait for the official outcome and stop turning FerrariChat into LegalBoringChat, or ChildishComeBackChat.

Pete
ps: Jim ... er, I'm joking please don't destroy the car, but then again if you have reached boiling point, do what you please with it.

ps1: Ferrari enthusiasm sure does not relate to class, as I see none here . Take a look at yourselves children and what you are writing ...

 

I think I can answer that one for you, Horsefly:
The original (P3 and) P4 bodies were hammered out at Piero Drogo's 'Carrozzeria Sports Cars’ in Modena.

I don’t believe the factory race department carried ANY spare bodywork, back then. Take Le Mans, 1967, for example. In practice, Sutcliffe (or maybe it was Klasse – please feel free to correct me Macca), comprehensively stuffed the front end of #0860 (the #19 car). How did they fix it, in time for the race ? By replacing the nose clip ? Nope – lots of ‘hammer and dolly’ work ! I would post a couple of photos to illustrate, but you know how it is ….

I would suspect that it's more likely that Jim’s P4 bodywork comes from the same period when David Piper’s #0900 P4 Spyder was built – the mid-70’s, (or even later possibly) when Allegretti set out in business on his own, producing reproduction P4 (and other) bodywork, after Piero Drogo was killed in a car accident in 1973.

I think I need to 'qualify' that a little, before 'Macca' jumps ALL OVER my obvious omission .... See next posting !

Jeff. If it wasn’t for all the little non-contibutory posts like this, which add nothing to the debate (and frequently bury pertinent points), the thread might just be a little bit shorter ….
______________________
The truth is out there ....

 

(John) You still seem to be somewhat confused about my comments. As for your summary "its clear," and "its the law", and your summary of the cases you've cited, again seem, (if I may repeat myself) your conclusions are "half-baked".

(ed) The only thing I'm confused about is how you can't understand a simple "half-baked" explanation of what constitutes ownership of a vehicle, yet you have a law degree? Typical, you guys need to find an arguement in everything. How about you explain a little better to me what I'm confused about. You have to remember, I'm just a simple guy, my life is pretty back and white. When I'm told that the chassis is the car and I've yet to see where that is NOT the case, then I take that as the truth. Its not what I think is right, its just a fact. And case law is there unless everything I read is a big lie and conspiracy. The Yenko Vette case was covered in VETTE magazine many years ago. It was summed up simply that the decision was based on who owned the chassis. The owner of the body felt he owned the car but court felt he was mistaken.

(john) You've cited two cases, one regarding a Yanko and a 166 MM that won LeMans. If the cases involve one guy with the chassis, the drive train, the suspension, the engine, but a reconstructed body, and anther guy with just the body, then I think the conclusion that the former has ownership of the provinence of the actual car, would be an easy one. Such a citation misses the point of my original post by a mile. My point was that an original body to a P4 would be a significant factor in determining whether someone built a real P4 or a replica.

(ed) I understand that without the particulars of the case its hard to know if they decided on the chassis alone. So you need more info. I don't have it but it shouldn't be hard to look up as you would have better access than I. I personally do not feel like spending hours trying to find the transcript. I wish I had the time. I feel like I'm wasting time right now. So I'll make this my last one on this subject. You can have the last word on this one when I finish replying in this post.
A real P4 would have to be one of the several chassis made. If a P4 was constructed of all original P4 parts but the chassis was a replica. Its a replica. It might be worth lots of money, but its a replica. It also works with Shelby Cobras. They are referred to by chassis. Its not just a Ferrari thing for those who think its only F cars that do this.

(john) I'm reminded of a saying by my old law professoer: he used to say that most arguements are like two ships passing in the night. He was right!

(ed) (I'm only guessing, but does that mean the issue is not really important, because if thats the point you are trying to make I finally do agree with you)

(john) While not relevant to my point, my guess is that if you are citing actual cases, the conclusion and the facts are a tad more complicated than you've summarized. I can tell you I've run into few areas of the law and even fewer cases where the facts and arguments of a case can be summaried in a clause. I have run into fewer cases tried to a court were the facts are clear and uncontested. So I'm a tad curious as to the accuracy of the simple summaries that you've cited. Do you have the names of those cases, the citations? I would find it interesting to read them. If you can give me a little more information about them I will summarize them for the board. I think they would be very interesting.

(ed) I have no idea of the case numbers or anything. Like I said I'm into the cars not much else surrounding them. Don't care who owns what, just like knowing what the cars look like if I want to build a scale replica of them. Sometimes that turns into finding chassis numbers and tracking pictures of the cars. I also find it amusing seeing how current owners of cars use there creative liscense to restore the cars even when they want to make them original looking. (no I'm not digging JG, he expalined why he did what he did. Many owners just don't have access to the volume of info that is needed and required to do a resto properly. They rarely check proper colors, small details, it just happens IMHO)
The cases shouldn't be hard to find. How would you go about looking up info on a case your working on? (by the way I have assumed you're a lawyer as you do allude to it) You would have more access to case law then me. I'm not a lawyer. Other than traffic court and once on a jury in jury duty, I've never been inside court. What I can remeber from the 166MM 49LM winner, there were 2 operating cars that claimed to be the winning car. Someone on here must have more info on this.

(john) In any any case, I cannot imagine anyone subscribing to the black and white principle that a chassis plate alone makes a car, and no other part is significant. If you believe this, its your opinion, but your in the great minority.

(ed) Again, its not my opinion, I don't necessarily beleive anything, I don't have a subscription to anything, I really don't care other than I know what the courts have found regarding this according to everything I have read about it so far (not whats on this forum but elsewhere). I agree I haven't done years of research but I do recall those 2 examples. Also, what makes you think I'm in the minority? Or more accurately, the definition I have given. Did you do a survey I'm unaware of? Because most who I ask agrees with this definition of a car. In fact only a very vocal minority feel otherwise, but have nothing to back up that claim.

(john) As for you guesses, and your dismissal of my suggestions about what may consitute civil liability, slander and fraud, let me just say I've chosen my comments carefully and defined them narrowly.

I didn't dismiss anything. I just don't care about it (maybe thats a dismissal in itself, if it is, no offense). I'm just interested in the cars. What needs to be defined more narrowly are the terms, original, genuine, restored, restored to original condition, etc. All these terms are very different

Ed

 

Another valuable contribution to the discussion there, then Pete ! (IMHO NOT)
______________________
The truth is out there ....

 

This is a continuation of post #465, which would probably have over-run the one hour editing ‘timeout’ limit.

There would, of course, at the end of the ’67 season have been various odd bits of ORIGINAL P3/4 and P4 front and rear body sections ‘lying around’ discarded. Why ? Because the NART P3/4 Berlinetta #0844 and two of the factory P4 Spyders, #0858 and #0860, had been converted to Can-Am (4.2 litre ‘350’ specification in the case of the factory cars) using ‘abbreviated’ fibreglass nose and tail sections. Rumour has it that #0860’s (though it could just as likely have been #0858’s) front and rear body sections ended up on David Piper’s #0900 P4 Spyder. Where is the rest of it ? Who knows ? Piper has probably contributed much of it to the restoration of other original cars.

Interestingly enough, a rather battered P4 nose clip, carrying the #6, and claimed to be the original nose section from #0860, turned up on Pennsylvania Motor Sport’s website, early in 2002, with an asking price of $20,000 !
It subsequently re-appeared on Rick Carey’s auction website a few months later, saying that it was ‘probably’ from #0860. It was sold (by RM) for a mere $6000 + 15% premium. I wonder whose garage wall it is hanging on now ?

______________________
The truth is out there ….

 

P4Replica,
That's exactly right about P4 bodies - I only pick up obvious errors, or add additional information, honest! I've seen a picture of the battered nose of the Klass/Sutcliff car.

I've wondered myself about what happened to the 1966-67 bodies. Were all the 1966 P3 bodies scrapped, or were any bits used again for anything? Although I don't know of any P3 body bits turning up at auctions, the wire buck used for forming them was found in Modena and was auctioned at Coys at Silverstone a few years ago. The NART 'White Elephant' is now rebodied in 1965 P2 form, so I wonder what happened to the subsequent 1966/67/68 parts.

When 0856, 0858 and 0860 were converted to spyders for Brands Hatch, I wonder if Ferrari/Drogo altered the existing bodies or made three new tails and sets of doors/windows?

When David Piper bought 0854 from Col. Hoare, it still had the alloy berlinetta body, which he widened to take wider rims, then made lighter GRP bodies for racing (I've seen pictures of the damage when he hit a wandering pitlane mechanic in one race in South Africa in 1967-68, and another after hitting an Alfa GTV). Then 0854 was badly burnt in a crash after colliding with 0858, and after repair by David Clarke's (then owner of 0856) Graypaul Motors, it went to the USA and was used as a road car, acquiring the spyder body that I believe it still carries. So is there an original 0854 alloy berlinetta body somewhere or was it cut about?

And apart from the Can-Am cars, 0850 was damaged so badly at Spa on May 1st 1967 that it couldn't be repaired for Le Mans on June 10th-11th (and Mairesse was said to be lucky to be only bruised) - so when it reappeared for the Montlhery 1000k on Oct 15th, did it have a new body, or even chassis?

Piper's 0900 has what looks like the original 'goo' filler on the inside of the alloy nose and tail, with '0860' painted on in faded paint (or it did in 1994). When Bardinon restored 0860 and fitted a spyder body, there are different reports in print that either Piper supplied a body or part of one, or that Bardinon had a new body made - so there's a 350/P4 Can-Am body somewhere, and of course the 0844 Can-Am body.

And Piper's P2/3 s/n 0836 had the 1967 pseudo-P4 body on it when I first saw it in 1986, but now has the 1965-66 body (with no luggage-boxes and different louvres in the tail, and the smaller slits around the rad opening). Has he got the other one still, or did he have it turned into a 'P4' body if it was alloy? (And for Horsefly, did it become a 'replica' in 1967, and is it now officially 'real' again?!!)

As you say, the answer is, or may be, out there somewhere.........

Paul M

 

Just to clear up what is obviously a minor misunderstanding before letting this thread sink......I don't ask anybody to do anything for me, e-mail me scans or send me anything, so being pointed to where I can find information is a bonus, thank you. What I was saying is that if I see those magazines I may buy them (and not just for P-cars, as I expect there is a lot of other interesting stuff in them as well) or I may decide to spend my cash on some other things.

And I'm sure you've noticed that I freely admit when I am in error, and without a long paragraph of explanation or excuse of tiredness ..........because the glasses I already wear give me 20/20 vision (and no sightist jokes, thank you).

Paul M

 

Am I the only one who wishes Skett wld fall off the face of the earth?

... or at least just leave f chat?

 

Greg,

You are being a troll.

Paul just posted that he was stopping if people wouldn't egg him on. Let it go.

Paul S., please don't respond.

Sincerely,

Art S.

 

So, what... No one likes my model...?

 

I already own one......

 

Art,

Paul M is NOT Paul Skett. Ask yourself who really is being a troll in this whole subject ...

I definitely know for sure if I should trip over an interesting Ferrari/car, whatever I'm not posting anything about it that is for sure. Or you end up with is doubting and jealous Thomas's pumping up their ego and trying to show the world how much of an expert they are on the subject. This could have been handled so differently if some had wanted to HELP Jim instead of gaining satisfaction from proving him wrong. Same result will have occurred but without the smug satisfaction ...

Pete's opinion, undoublty to be answered with another charming and oh so mature response

 

When the chips fall and Jim submits proof of his claims, will you, Paul Skett, be man enough to admit you were wrong?
Or will you still insist it's not true no matter what is presented or by whom?
I'm just wondering what your reaction will be.

 

Pete,

On a Macro scale you may be correct but in the Daytona thread Paul called a 'Truce' on the P4 issue.

My guess is that some people reading these posts enjoy the flame wars and are intentionally egging him on.

Catman,

The only way to know is to wait and see - much like the rest of Jim's P4 saga.

Regards,

Art S.

 

We all have been trying to make Paul Skett quiet down and wait and see for many months now ... he is not interested in the final verdict ... I have no idea at all what game he is playing?

But if he has finally called a Truce then the mountain has been moved

Pete's relieved

 

More like a parting shot and ceasefire http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134255107&#post134255107 but in the interests of harmony can we all just let it drop without any further animosity, lest Paul finds in necessary to re-open hostilities. Unless of course you have some facts to add to the discussion

BTW nice model NNO, even got the correct racing numbers on it

 

Has anyone here noted the comments by Mr. J.L. Hevia late of Miami in Cavallino issue #78 of December 1993? He had the chance to view 0846 up close and take some pictures of the Ferrari in 1967. Perhaps there is more information to be found with him.
ch

 

The ex-NART P3/4 s/n was at the Goodwood Festival of Speed last weekend. I'll try to get some pictures on here in due course, but meantime here is the drawing from the Prunet book that has been discussed of the Filipinetti car s/n 0848 - and it DOES have blue rims, so my book must have faded! BUT it had gold wheels when it ran in the Monza 100k in 1967.

Paul M
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Paul M.
How did 0844 look, sound and run?
Best

 

Napolis,
here's a link to the FOS website and a cut n paste about 0844.There's a full
review of this year's Festival on the website.

http://www.goodwood.co.uk/2004/fos/

Hardman’s Ferrari fastest in first session

The end of the first session of timed runs saw Peter Hardman’s sublime 1966 Ferrari 330 P3 set the fastest time, pipping Justin Law in his Jaguar XJR12, an endurance racer from another era.

Law, who held fastest time of the day on both previous days, recorded a 49.7sec to Hardman’s 49.3sec.

John Delane set an impressive 51.8sec in his ex-Stewart Tyrrell-Cosworth 006, and was third as the session closed.

“I can’t tell you how excited I am,” gushed the Californian. “I’m just having a ball. Lord March’s garden party is the best. I can’t tell you how great it is.”

“That kid in the Jag is going fast. I’m going to have to give it my pitiful best.”

Other highlights of the first session in included another low-level fly-past by the South African Airlines Boeing 747, and on the track a series of donuts and burnouts by current Formula One stars including Jenson Button, new Ferrari tester Andrea Bertolini (middle right) and, most spectacularly, Antonio Pizzonia in the 2003 Williams-BMW FW25.

Emerson Fittipaldi (bottom right) sampled an F1 car from a different era, driving Frank Mountain’s ex-Schumacher Ferrari F2001

 

Jim,
0844 looked superb, there are a few pictures in various threads elsewhere on FChat. Here are some links to general pictures of the weekend:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22554
http://8w.forix.com/fos04-fri/index.html
http://8w.forix.com/fos04-sat/index.html
http://8w.forix.com/fos04-sun/index.html

http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?threadid=70659

Most of my own pictures are 35mm so I don't know if I'll be able to get them scanned and posted.

I had a long talk to the 'Tim Samways' mechanic on Friday, and he was kind enough to open the engine cover for me and answer a lot of (fairly dumb) questions. The car has a rollcage fitted now for racing, the uprights are NOS (probably from Piper though he didn't name names) for the sake of safety, likewise the wheels are re-cast. Peter Hardman drives the car without much sliding, the modern tyres (or tires) are much grippier than the old ones and also he leaves more in reserve especially with such a narrow course. I forgot to look at the red line on the tacho, though; but it sounded magnificent.

Paul M

Here are a couple of 0844 by other people:
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Very cool! Goodwood Hill is very narrow and it's line is strange as well. You also don't want to go off even into a hay bale as the Lambo found out. The FOS is really one of the great events. Unless you've been you really don't know just how special it is.
Best

 

The cockpit of 0844, and the rears of 0844, 365GTB/C Daytona and Paul Papplardo's 250GTO:
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

That roll cage makes sense. My MK-IV has a very stout one. (Original) but the one in my Lola was made of muffler pipe! (I beefed that one up). It's amazing that the P3/4's didn't have any.
It's great that he uses that car the way he does.

 

Here is a shot of it in action at the recent Spa Ferrari Days. One of my best shots ever.

http://www.***************.com/slide/spafer2004/1038.jpg