The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

"0846", TO BE OR NOT TO BE.......... i am glad this thread is finally here. i have felt for some time that i have been allowed to witness from the sidelines, history bieng made. how could it NOT be 0846 with the evidence as presented? James has always said something to the effect that the car MAY hold the surviving remains of 0846. the fact that its a P3 modified to later specs is super cool, how many of these chasis were made? how many were modified? What else could it be?
i Picture the chasis artisans ( Alegretti??) on a warm. late afternoon , toiling on hand made Jigs and tooling, and they get the idea to use the rest of what is serviceable of the chasis that was thrown away. " Parts is Parts" as they say around here. race cars, old airplanes, sometimes what is practical works.

Mr. Piper, and the spaces in between... who am i to say or judge? Back then, Ferrari 250 Gto's were thrown away and high school shop classes got to beat on them. Now its 2004 and the Ferrari cars, and others of the same genre / era are now ICONS. Who could have guessed!!
did the artisans cut a corner or two and use most of what was left of 0846 for mr Pipers chasis order is a standing question that may never be answered.

Guess what folks, as a normal guy with the modified, off color remains of a 308 , i STILL worship the ground this Ferrari rolls on , in AWE. "0846" or maybe not. its been a long time since the races in 1967. i wasnt born until a few years later. i grew up reading about these times, cars and races, and they became as legend to me , rivaling the King Authur tales and spagetti westerns. like most here , it has been an honor to read this , and post here. i hope you folks are going to post more pics of 0846. ( and 002-C!!) that said, this should be one of the greatest threads in FerrariChat's history. Michael M.

 

I have no knowledge on this matter whatsoever, but what did strike me was the fact that mr Glickenhaus' car was displayed on Pebble Beach and it was displayed as a 330 P4 with serial# 0846. I suspect the people of Pebble Beach won't have anything to do with anything even remotely resembling a replica and that there is some scruteneering in one way or another going on before a car can enter the Pebble Beach grounds and being displayed as an original. Does the fact that mr Glickenhaus' car was displayed at Pebble Beach as the 0846 P4 mean that the organisation of Pebble Beach confirm the suggested identity of the car? Than that is certainly good enough for me.

 

Oh ok, my mistake.

Why wasn't it on display in Pebble Beach? Would it have been on display if it's identity was undisputed or is there some other reason?

On the other hand, it being on display as 0846 on the occasions you mention, mean it is widly accepted in Ferrari-society as 0846, doesn't it? Or perhaps the Ferrari-society wants it to be 0846. Perhaps an unbiased historian would conclude otherwise.

 

I think the fact that FNA has it as 0846 in its database of owners speaks volumes.

The fact that it was not at Pebble Beach doesn't sound good. OTOH Jim just finished the reconstruction, so maybe there wasn't enough time for the judges to examine the car and proove themselves of its originality.

Perhaps next year in Indianapolis?

 

For what it is worth, I rebuild a lot of totals and the general rule is that the VIN stays with the cowl.

 

What is the cowl?

Pardon the question, English is not my native language.

 

Off the subject a bit, but as to what constitues a car, what about the case of the Alfa (really Scuderia Ferrari) Bimotore? Two cars were built, and one was turned into a single enigined single seater. The majority of that car exists, in differnt places. A lot of stuff would have to be recreated to turn it back to a Bimotore. Is it a Ferrari if someone actually does this?

If you think the case of 846 is difficult, divulge youself into the individual histories of many of the small displacement "etceterini" With rare exception, one car was turned into another through modification; sometimes on the same car as many as a dozen times! Most of these cars used extensively modified FIAT motors and certain cars really have the "right" to be called by many differnt names....

I guess the bottom line for me is "who cares"; it's beautiful!!

 

The chasis is the car.

If he has the chasis, he has the car. Such cars, of course, are never as "complete" as cars with lots of other original bits. But it would certainly be appropriate to refer to a car with chasis 0846 as "0846," even if the body were rusted away and it had no engine at all.

 

On a front engined car think of it as the vertical fire wall between the engine compartment and the passenger compartment. The serial number plate is rivited to the engine compartment side of the cowl. For #0846 that many here seem to have an emotional interest in the serial number plate is located...I am sure- though someone here can advise on this detail.
ch

 

As rounder says "On a front engined car think of it as the vertical fire wall between the engine compartment and the passenger compartment"

It is the piece between the front door posts that seperates the passenger compartment from either the engine compartment or the front trunk if rear or mid engined. It is the piece that the dash is connected to and includes other associated pieces.

 

The answer in my opinion to the question 'What constitutes the car as 0846', I say again is continuous history.

Why this is difficult with 0846 is the history is lost in the middle.

With most cars they are built by the factory, sold to X, modified by X, sold to Y, modified by Y and so on ... but no matter what modifications happen it is still the same car.

Thus for Jim to 100% prove that his car is 0846 he NEEDS to fill in the complete history.

What we know so far is the car was:
1. Built as a P3 by Ferrari and given chassis #0846.
2. Modified by Ferrari to be a P3/4.
3. Caught fire at Le Mans in '67 with Chris Amon driving it.
4. ???
5. Piper used parts to build #0003.
6. Bought by Jim as #0003.
7. During restoration discovered links to #0846.

Thus research is required to answer 4. My theories:

I dispute that the chassis of 0846 was so bad that it was taken to a dump ... does not make sense, it was just a fire. Why scrap it. In '67 it would still have been a current race car that even if Ferrari did not want to race anymore, could still be sold to a privateer for okay money.

More likely the chassis laided around in somebodies workshop for a few years while they muttered about getting rid of it ... maybe Enzo would not pay for the repairs?

Anyway, along came Piper with MONEY (in the '70's so 0846 was not that old) ... all of a sudden the old car has some profit left in it and thus was patched together and sold to Piper.

How Piper did not know that it was a P3/4 is confusing ... but as I have said before any car that has been Piperised will always have a confused history because he seems to like nothing more than pissing off the history diggers, and purposely confusing the history of a car ... probably laughs about it all the time

Pete

 

pics help. this is a " Cowl Tag" and Vin tag off one of my cars that had sentimental value to me, but i had to cut it up after it was wrecked.( car was not a Ferrari)
Ferrari's have a sequential chasis build number. lesser cars have a data plate on the cowl that shows all the standard and optional equipment on the car as it left the factory. ie, paint engine interior code , time built codes, day shift , night shift, ( month, day ect )and suspension / brake packages. cool reading IF YOU KNOW ALL OF THE CODES!

 

I hate to hijack this thread with another question but can sombaoy tell me who this Piper guy is and why is he so imprtant to the p3/p4 cars? Was he part of Ferrari at one time? What did/does he do? Is he still alive(I assume he is becuase of the earlier post) And why does he not chime in on this topic. I'm quite sure he would have some sort of interest in this. Has anybody ever spoken with this guy regarding any of this?

 

David Piper, the racing driver
Piper has owned just about all the P3 and P4 Ferraris at some time. Thus is unofficially the P3/P4 expert.

No but made a fortune by selling part of the family farm when the M1 (?, English motorway) needed some of his land.

He is a 100% wheeler and dealer + racing driver.

Yes he is still alive and owns 0900 (a P4 Ferrari made by him with permission from the factory, hence they gave it a serial number). He also owns a 250LM a P2 and many others ...

He has chimed in and believes Jim's car is #0003, ie. the 3rd car of 3 P4's that he had made.

Pete

 

So, the ony logical question would be: would the car be invited of the Pebble people had no doubts about this P4 being 0846? Surely it would've.

 

Are those other three officially labeled Ferrari's or are we talking about "Piper P4's"

So the question remains, are there parts of 0846 to be found in mr Glickenhaus' P4 and how much 0846 does have to be present to label the car interely as 0846 and not as the Piper 0003 with some 0846 parts?

Surely there must be some sort of criterium to establish the fundamental identity of the car. In both legal and historic sense, every car must have an identity.

 

During the ban on posting on the subject of '#0846', a parallel discussion was (and still is) being conducted in the Nostalgia forum in AtlasF1.com. See page 4 of the Ferrari 330P4 thread. (The earlier pages are worth a read too).

On his return from Monterey, on 18th August, Doug Nye wrote:

"Most of me has just emerged from the big silver bird returning from Monterey. I have just read this - TNF being a back-home-at-last Priority these days, of course ....

I met Mr G. - didn't get to see his car (due purely to my misunderstanding of where it was located) -we had an interesting conversation - and by the way the car pictured above at Pebble Beach was indeed Laurence Stroll's ex-Bernie E., ex-Albert Obrist, ex-David Clark macchina - not the Glickenhaus-Piper Spl.

Regarding the latter entity I remain personally intensely suspicious about the owner's current claims for it, perhaps 5% from simple prejudice (because anybody who parades as a badge his preference for running such cars on the public road - like a wild bird in a cage - twangs my personal "what a tosser" chord, as I made clear) - but I spare a couple of per cent for the possibility (and I put it no stronger than that) that Jim Glickenhaus's declared beliefs and conclusions are based upon sustainable evidence....unless he, or someone working on the car, has indulged in some pretty serious wilful falsification (which I also made clear).

Some protestations - such as "it will never be sold" - are familiar old songs, which I have heard sung time after time by many such people and which seldom survive the honeymoon period before cupidity takes over and the dollar speaks.

But this affair was really number 396B in the subject-matter list last week, and from the few discussions I had - or overheard - with a number of prominenten involving this matter, it seemed that most were coming from the "ha ha pull the other leg, it's got bells on" end of the spectrum.

From listening to Mr G., I am not so totally dismissive.

But what he has - regardless - remains a deeply flawed motor car and is NOT to be regarded as '0846'. It might - just MIGHT - be the closest we can now get to it...but I still truly doubt it.

For what that's worth...
DCN

PS - Car to die for - Ferrari Dino 196SP '0790' ex-Leandro Terra, as unmolested and jaw-droppingly unspoiled an historic document as we in the motor racing world are ever likely to encounter...and there it was, sitting on the Pebble Beach lawns.

This was the first concours - of any kind - I have ever spent time at in my entire life. Not really my particularly 'thing', and I probably won't try the experience a second time, but hands-on examination of this car amplified my disregard for the restored and the replicated...which were parked all around..."

 

.... But another poster to the AtlasF1 thread, mentioned above, just happens to be Michael T. Lynch - who is a regular contributor to Cavallino magazine. It will be interesting to what he writes on the subject of Jim's P4 and '#0846', if and when the time comes ....

Well - you wanted "a magazine writer with some B@LLS", Alan

 

The problem with that is we're talking about a racecar. I assume you can do whatever you want. If you would want to register it for the road it would be a different game though.

A car has three main parts: chassis, engine, body. O, and if registered a title.
History has shown that either part is apparently good enough to build a recreation of a destroyed car, sometimes multiple ones. And sometimes a recreation is built around the smallest part available (there's the famous phrase "built around a tach needle" on Telaio).

If the new programme by Ferrari is anything to go by, almost no Ferrari is original any longer and thus couldn't claim the identity of when it came out of the factory. Let alone the recreations like 0846.

Which official body would legally be able to specify what makes a real car with a real identity? Who cares?

As said by the owner himself, 0846 is not a "no story car". Few historic Ferraris are. As long as the story stays with the car and nobody is deceived, there's no problem in my view, even if in the future another car pops up with more or less claim to the identity of 0846. There are already several chassisnumbers claimed by more than one car. That's unfortunate but as long as the stories are known it's not too bad.

The Ferrari community plays an important role in the recognition of identities and keeping the stories alive. So to say that you believe this car has the right identity or another hasn't is beside the point. If a car has a gap in it's history nobody can tell for sure what's what.

 

Jim's larger packet of material, which he was kind enough to send me, makes it clear to this total amateur that he has as much of #0846 as there is to have.

Whether or not that makes the car "officially" #0846 is not within my skill set.

I've watched and listened and read as much as I could over the last couple of months to try and learn enough to make a judgement about this car.

I can only tell you what I think. Seems to me, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Now, I'm sure we're going to have serious conversations about this car until FerrafiChat.com bursts at the seams. So, all of you "real" experts, bring it on. I'll be reading every word.

Oh, and no matter what, it is an absolutely beautiful car, fabulously prepared, and a work of art that Jim is justifiably proud of.

Dave M.

 

P4replica....


So Doug Nye thinks Jim is likely to be pulling a fast one and the car is not 0846. Doug Nye also admits to being prejudiced against the car for various reasons, he does not like Jim's type of ownership (someone who does not race the cars) and HE HAS NEVER SEE THE CAR OR STUDIED ANY OF THE EVIDENCE.

Given that last sentence.... what exactly does the opinion of Doug Nye mean? Dont get me wrong, I respect the guy and love his books. History of the Grand Prix car 1945 - 1965 is one of my very favorite car books. Still, if he has not examined the evidence and he admits to prejudice.... what should his opinion count for?

This is my real question for you, please answer it:

Jims car clearly was NOT built from P4 blueprints and plans. Many people have now seen this. The chassis frame does not match 0900 or the other Piper P4 cars that were built as per the P4 blueprints. Jims car does however exhibit the factory specified changes to engine moutings and frame reinforcing in this area required when updating a P3 to a P4.... as history tells us happened to 0846.

David Piper says Jims car was built to P4 blueprints at the same time as the others he had built, by the same people and is thus simply a P4 replica as the others. Now the question....

How is it that Jims car does not match the other Piper P4s nor does it match the P4 blueprints?



Terry

 

You cannot build a P3 chassis from P4 blueprints.
If you cannot build a P3 chassis from P4 blueprints, then you cannot build a P3/4 chassis...
even if you can build a P4 chassis in your dreams with one hand tied behind your back, while blindfolded, with a gun to your head, with a room full of screaming babies with rabies.

At it's most basic level, this is what a P3 chassis was and is, when modified into a P3/4.

Original:
P3 chassis holds P3 motor and P3 transmission.
Problem:
P4 motor (upgrade) will not fit unless P3 chassis is modified.
Solution:
P3 chassis modified to accept a longer P4 motor.
Method:
Extension to chassis/motor mounting points beginning precisely where purpose-built P3 motor mounts existed.
Reason:
P4 motor (again, longer than P3 motor) has front motor mounts which are further forward than that of a P3 motor.
Result:
P3 chassis became a P3/4 chassis.

In order to be sure of one's work, one must work backwards:
Were one to remove said extensions for motor mounts, one would be able to put a P3 engine precisely where the original chassis/motor mount points are still clearly visible.

Double-check further by comparing old location of 0846 motor mount to Compare to 0844 P3 chassis, and you will see there is no mystery.

P3 ran at '66 LeMans.
P4 ran at '67 LeMans.
P3 Gearbox in P3/4
P4 Motor in P3/4
P4 engine accomodates P3 gearbox. Voila.
How quickly they forget.

Scrutinizing Stamps bear out LeMans lineage of respective P3/4 Gearbox and Motor.

How does one convert or verify said conversion of a P3 chassis to P4?
One must defer to Ferrari's own Technical Data Sheets in order to build or verify the conversion of P3 to P4. The only car of all the Technical Data Sheets to be labelled "330 P3/4" - is indeed, a P3 chassis converted to P4 specifications. 12mm of difference through and through. 12mm difference Exactly where it is supposed to be.

I'll touch on Technical Data Sheets and other engine/gearbox/chassis facts later.

P3/4 chassis = 0846. Get used to it. We're very fortunate, aren't we?

 

posted by tspringer

Remember that, amongst all his other books he is the author of 'Dino:The Little Ferrari' and 'Ferrari:6th Edition' with the late Hans Tanner; he has also written the out-of-print profile booklet on the Ferrari P-cars and many articles on them, including one specifically about David Piper's P4 recreation s/n 0900 in 1979 for the defunct 'Old Motor' magazine.

He's also the historical adviser and programme-writer to the Goodwood Festival of Speed and Revival, and a consultant to a lot of other people about a lot of cars, both technically and about provenence. And he knows everybody, and is a friend of David Piper - which may be the other thing that perhaps influences him (apart from his dislike of historic race cars that are driven on the road instead of raced) towards a particular view - he knows Piper's financial acumen!

So I don't think he believes Jim has pulled a fast one; he just can't believe that greedy old Piper could have missed something.

Paul M