The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I agree with everything you said ... except one small thing. Who decides that a car is allowed to run in the Historic Challenge and what rules do they use?

Also if I bought say a 340MM or 250 GT SWB Ferrari and restored it, I most definitely would replace many things to make it safe ... but I would keep all the parts that were on it. Now ofcourse I doubt whether any of those parts were also original, but you never know and some confused car collector poofter might want those parts when it comes to selling.

Is it not enough that you can simply trace the car back to that history ... and thus you are sitting in the car that once won the 'Whatever' ... surely you do not want to sit in a rusted out wreck that cannot drive, going 'Cool man, this things won 'Whatever' ... man just awesome!

Some people simply take it way to far ... cars are not paintings, or historical documents, they are machines and when fully operating - perfect!

Pete

 

Lynch or me?

 

Dale,

What a massive insult to those Challenge race cars!. They are 100% genuine Challenge race cars ... not replicas.

Please don't confuse the easily confused with comments like that.

One day somebody will be restoring one of those genuine Challenge race cars and be having the same issue regarding authenticity.

Pete
ps: a replica is a copy of something. Ferrari made those Challenge cars, even gave them their own type ... nothing to do with replicas. Just a lower level race series compared to F1.

 

Yep fine ... expect the parts used in this case are 100% Ferrari parts.

It still is the latest form of that very same race car. There are thousands of cars like this, that have been modified way past their racing days should have ended.

P3 Alfa Romeos in NZ that had Jaguar engines replace the straight 8 ... or v8 engines ... that SAME car still kept on racing.

Eventually somebody restored these cars and removed the modifications and put an Alfa Romeo engine back in their (probably a brand new one) ... the car is still a P3 Alfa Romeo, still the same car that left the Alfa Romeo (or Ferrari) factory back in the 30's ... it just went to the dark side for a few years . Still those same bits of metal that once Nuvolari raced ... not all of them but most of them ... and importantly the chasis.

I can even think of an Alfa Romeo GTA in Australia that raced with a Repco Brabham v8 engine for many years, then a rotary ... and then finally written off big time. It was restored and an Alfa Romeo F2 engine installed ... still the same car ...

So no matter what you say if Jim can prove via continuous history that the chassis in his car was once used to hold the Ferrari P3/4 known as #0846 together ... then he has the current form of that car ... call it a Ferrari or whatever you like, but it is NOT a replica. It is made of genuine parts. You could say that it was rebodied ... fair enough, like 98% of other race cars.

Pete
ps: IF the chassis number on Jim's chassis had not been removed, we would not be having this discussion ... everybody would happily accept that Jim was restoring #0846. Why should the removal of a 5 cent piece of metal from the frame make such a difference? ... the rest of the frame still competed as #0846, not just the label.

The label is just that a label ... not the be and end all of the chassis.

 

I think there are two camps on this one.

1. The users
- These are the people that go out and race their cars or actually drive them. For reasons of both safety and functionality, the cars must be maintained in running order. These cars are more prone to being shunted in a race (especially vintage racing in Europe) and going through consumables that are no longer available, thus having more modern content to them.

2. The showers
- These are the people that spend god knows how much money to make a car perfect and then don't use the car because they might have to go back and spend an additional $25k to make it right before the next concours. Everything must be original and correct and they will spend thousands hunting down the last section of cloth fuel line that has been sitting on somebody's shelf for 30 years, even if technology has advanced.

When I first got into Ferraris almost 10 years ago, I was a catagory 2 person. Now that I am getting older, I always try and refrain from telling anyone how to spend their money. I am a stong believer in catagory 1.

If this means the show fields are thinner at various concours events of cars that are better than they were when they left the factory and actually have patina on them, well, I for one would be a happy camper.

Car's weren't designed nor constructed to be museum pieces. That's why anyone that has bought a low milage queen has to spend money to get it running again. Art was conceived and created to be hung on a wall. If you do that with a car, you'll have oil stains...

DB:

To answer your question, there are so few people that have been around a modern F1 car, that it would be very hard for someone to tell you what is correct and what is not. Go out, use the car for the reasons you bought it. Which to me sound like "drive and have fun". Enjoy.

 

Good question. Ferrari decides and some very knowledgeable people are involved.But then again Ferrari is an italian company

Also correct but as I tried to point out with the 917 some cars should not be raced anymore but kept as a piece of historic evidence. There is not just one truth involved.

I personally prefer to drive everything that was made to be driven. I replaced the brakes on my Lusso, but kept the original ones. There´s a stainless steel exhaust, because the other ones rot within one year. The radiator is beefed up, because the old one was beyond repair. So what!!! Its still a Lusso and a very nice one too. Bt sorry, off topic we´re talking race cars.

By the way will a tubistyle on an F40 or F50 be a problem in 50 yrs?

Historic grand prix Monaco, A 212 Vignale Coupe was almost not admitted at the final scrutineering because it had the original windshield. Considered unsafe. ??? The owner of the car is well known as a very exact type valueing originality.

What I am trying to say it that it probably doesn´t matter what you do, it´ll be wrong for someone anyway. But what I believe is important that one is always honest about what he knows about and does with his cars. No Misrepresentation, no discussion.

Its 2:00 am here so I´ll read a liitle more and say good night.

DB

 

Well said and both camps are important to exist. It´s up to everyone himself to decide which group he prefers. I myself get pain in my stomach thinking of a collection of F1 cars sitting in someones cellar never to be used again, but hey...

My question was more hypothetical. I have the priilege to have the original Mechanics Pietro Corradini and Cleto Zini as well as a very experienced team at Modena Motorsport and Corse Clienti F1 servicing this car as well as the 641/2 so I really don´t stay awake worrying about the authenticity. I enjoy very much what I´m doing and even more the enjoyment I see in other people´s faces when they see the cars in action, just like I did since I was a little boy.

Now really Good night

DB

 

Lets look at number 2 ... because I think both 1 and 2 can exist, but some take number 2 too far.

There is nothing wrong with maintaining a car to look and be exactly how it was when it left say the Ferrari factory. One does not have to use modern materials ... but the main point I am trying to make is that you have to do the maintenance.

Unfortunately there are many in the number 2 camp that have an anxiety attack if the original 50 year old fuel line is replace with an identical product ... because it no longer is the 'original' fuel line.

This to me is just crazy ... when a fuel line can no longer function as a fuel line because it is so old and brittle that it will not hold fuel, let alone at pressure what good is it to anyone ... it even looks bad.

Thus I believe (especially with many old stuff being remade for these classic and historic cars) that you can maintain a 100 point concours car (or race car) and it is 100% perfect in every single component at how it was once represented AND do maintenance to.

Yes not all the components will be the exact original, but they will be of identical function, looks and design and thus the car looks perfect and drives perfect.

What the number 2 brigade promote is a car that gradually degrades until it needs a huge restoration ... because they refuse to do any maintenance ... I mean you might wipe of the original dust that it came out of the factory with. How does this help maintain the 'art' for future generations?

Pete

 

Do you want us to lynch you?

 

IF the chassis number on Jim's chassis had not been removed, we would not be having this discussion ... everybody would happily accept that Jim was restoring #0846. Why should the removal of a 5 cent piece of metal from the frame make such a difference? ... the rest of the frame still competed as #0846, not just the label.


Do we kow this for certain, or could it be that Piper still has the remnants of 846, and what he sold is a replica? Mr.G has PM'ed me and kindly offered to send me the booklet and additional information.

As to cars like P3s; when the become so modified that the majority of the car is no longer Alfa, than it is no longer a Alfa. A perfect example would be the Bimotore that was substantially modified and turned into a single engined car. It is no longer and Alfa, it became an Alfa based special.

Parts of this car still exist. Even if the car was put together to the same exact condition in which it was last raced as a Bimotore, but with recreated parts,it still would be a special.

 

no no no, the FORCE is far too strong in that one to throw away! bwhaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa

 

Yep totally agree but still the same car.

What I mean by that is that the pieces of metal or bolted and welded together that make up a thing we refer to as a 'car' has been continously modified and now looks like this ... but as the history will show still the same 'car'.

A car is not just a chassis number or a particular engine/gearbox or bolt and rivots. You can change all of them at any particular time and the car is just modified. What you want to call it is up to the owner ... but in the Alfa's case they were always known as Alfa based specials ... thus the chassis number X which was raced by Nuvolari was once one of these specials and had a new lease of life.

The parts were then used to return the SAME car back to its original format. Now because all the parts are Alfa Romeo parts it can once again be called a P3 Alfa Romeo.

Hopefully my meaning is making sense

Lets say I bought Michael Schumachers F2004 (that he uses to win the next race ... whatever that chassis number is). I then take this car to Australia and because Australian's are in love with the ute concept ... I turn it into some sort of mid-engined ute. IT IS STILL THE SAME CAR. The F2004 F1 car no longer has the format of a single seater, now it is a ute ... thus the latest form of the SAME car is a very strange looking ute.

Jim's car is the latest or current form of #0846 after it has been all over the place and had God knows what modifications and been used for God knows what. When you receive the documents I believe you will also agree that the chassis in Jim's car once had the label #0846 on it ...

Pete

 

Maybe we need to have a discussion, with all parties interested involved (including Pebble Beach judges, professional automotive historians, etc) as to what exactly is required to consider a car real or a recreation or a replica. Once official international standards are set, there will be no misundertanding or further need for discussion.

Lets consider an older car rather than a current F1, as that is what the 846 case is about. Let's take a Ferrari 312, and turn it into a ute in 1970, than do no more modifications on it.

Lets take the same 312, crash it and repair it, and do the same a second time....than have this car sit 20 years in pieces. The car is then reassembled using some or even all of the pieces that still exist and were not destoyed in the most recent crash...use new parts made to Ferrari specs where parts are missing....and half the car is these new parts...

I might consider the ute still a Ferrari, but the other car is not; at least in my opinion...

 

Moi thought it was you. BTW just came back from unloading. 002C is safe and sound pissing off J6 which is parked next to her.

 

From what I was told today, you may have a very long wait !

 

True, but I think the middle east issues are simplier

Well all I can say is I am completely dumb founded by that paragraph. What does time have to do with it. When the ute was created they did not use genuine Ferrari parts ... just a welder and some Aussie sheet metal.

Also EVERY single car in the world is not genuine by your definition.

I think you think of cars as some sort of living being or something spiratural (sp?) thing with a soul ... that dies when a bolt is undone. I think you need to work in the engineering field for a while and then you will realise (like I did when I was around 18) that a car is NOTHING special, just a whole lot of bolts and nuts and bits of metal, designed by somebody to do a task ... just like a washing machine or microwave. They do not live, they are just a collection of objects.

Also go and have a look in any panel beating shop when they fix a near new Ferrari (or any car) ... you would have a heart attack as they attack this living thing with a gas axle and grinder, and a bloody big hammer.

Yes the collection of bits makes a car, but by altering the collection of bits does not mean the car does not exist ... it just has had some things changed.

Pete

 

Sorry, my misunderstanding. I was assuming the conversion into a ute was done by Ferrari.

As to when the conversion was done; yes, I think it does matter, especially in the case of cars that compleated racing, were disassembled, than the parts laid dormant for 20 years...then the car was rebuilt with some old and some new parts. If more than 75% of the mechanicals and/or 50% of the coachwork are new, than it is a new car to me, and has no historic value.

 

There is actual case law that the chassis is the car. It was in Muscale car Reveiw magazine about 10 or so years ago concerning a Yenko raced Corvette. Somebody owned the body, somebody else owned the chassis. The chassis was determined the car.

Also if my 1969 Corvette gets in a fire tomorrow and burns to the ground but my chassis survived and I totally restored thre car with a NOS body and rebuilt the original motor/tranny/rear and interior. Its still a genuine Corvette. Nothing from the factory survived except the chassis. In fact, even if I replace the motor with another 427, its still a genuine Corvette as indicated on my build sheet. Its just not original. Its restored to original condition, but not original. But it is THE original car.

Many Muscle cars and just about every race Ferrari has had the body replaced. It does not make them any less genuine, just less original. But they are still THE original car, just not in original condition.

It has nothing to do with pecentages and most people do not agree with your definition. If they did, nobody would be getting the money for the cars they are getting today. And basically nothing would be or could be called original.

Ed

 

Just to be argumentative, what if the chassis is destroyed, but the rest of the car is rebuilt around a new, period-correct, chassis. Is the new car forwever a bastard?

DrTax

 

Perfect statement IMO.

Pete

 

What do you mean by period correct?

If you mean the chassis is a made today copy of a chassis ... then the car has been restored with a new chassis. Again to be documented in this cars history. Again I believe very strongly in continuous history ... because I believe cars are cars to be used. Others will think this car is a replica ... but surely it isn't just because the chassis has been replaced? ... I'd buy it

If it was a chassis that you found that was made originally back in the old days just like the original chassis ... then the car, er, sort of has changed identity and now becomes known as the new chassis restored using parts from car X.

Pete's opinion

 

Yes it is. It will always have excuses because the all important frame identification numbers will be gone. That's why "all original" cars are so valuable; they have no excuses. It all comes back to those "frame numbers". If they're gone, then all the "forensic examination" will never put them back in place. No matter how hard some may "wish" them to be there.

 

True. That is why some cars are referred to as storied cars ...

Pete

 

pics!!!!

 

Absolutely correct, at least in the case for muscle cars. For Ferraris I really don't know but it should be held to the same standard. In this case Horsefly, your double standard that you have given examples of in posts gone by might be proven correct. I honestly haven't heard a story of a re-chassied F-car yet.

I know several instances of the very valuable Hemi Cuda's having the chassis replaced because they were totally rotted away. Someone would find a decreped rotting documented Hemi and put everything on a standard cuda that was in good condition. Registering it with the hemi VIN. Once it was found the chassis was replaced then the cars were deemed fakes, not even a replica. The term replica is reserved for those who INTENDED to build a non original Hemi car, no VIN swapping; not someone representing an original. What made them hard to spot was some cars came with documentation going back to the factory. Engines even matched the VIN. The only reason these cars were found out was that the Hemi chassis had special reinforcing for the unibody chassis and rear suspension not found with any other Cuda. Even the 440's didn't have it .

Confusious say:
You switch chassis, you switch VIN, you in big trouble if you caught.

However in the event a ID tag becomes seperated from the chassis, its not impossible to prove with very serious evidence that a particular chassis is from a certain car. Its just extremely difficult to prove. It has to be very clear evidence. It may take years. Especially anything Piper touched. But I feel the truth is the truth. And if it is somehow clearly proven to be 0846, I'll accept that as fact. Some of what I've seen here and elsewhere looks fairly convincing. I am always skeptical but keep a open mind to what the facts are. Everything will come out. I doubt that all of a sudden everyone will say "this is 0846" and the debate will be over. This will probably go on long after we are all dead. In the reverse, many cars have been beleived to be certain chassis' and years later were found NOT to be a particular car that it was claimed to be. People find out somehow. It may not happen right away, but it all comes out.

Ed