The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I say we hit BOTH Kerry and Shrub with the missing hammer, if we can find it...LOL!

You're too much Horsefly.....ROTFLMAO!

 

It was just smoldering...but Kerry was injured when he shot the fire extingusher off and the chemicals got in his eye........Purple Heart was down graded to a Faded Blue Heart......

SMACK 'EM WITH THE HAMMER!

 

That's the nature of a forum: exchanging opinions.

 

The nature of a forum is to discuss. Discussions are helped with some fact-exchanging. It's going in circles for quite a while now.

 

A careful review of the SBV against 0846 contributor list revealed that P4Replica is a secret contributor funding their entire advertising campaign.

When outed at a recent press conference by the FerrariChat.com police he remarked, "No, I don't have any vested interest in this, and no I'm not going to say anymore about it.

However, you can check my original posting where I prove the car to be a replica at .... http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28197"

 

While I agree that those are the major components for a road car, they do not apply for a race car. The engine and gear box are wear items. Even in lower competitions like the Ferrari Challenge, competitive cars have at least a spare engine and a spare gearbox and use it during the season. When the 333 SP's were running, they commonly were given a package of engines. I don't know about Ferrari's numbers, but I visisted Honda's Tochigi center about 3 weeks ago. THEY BUILD 150 F1 ENGINES PER YEAR! Which one do you count as the correct motor? As for the body work, on a race car, it too is a wear item. The Audi R8's bring about 3 sets of body work per car to each race. Your argument holds that they must retain their original bodywork no matter how many battle scars it may have. Speaking of the Audi, they've designed it so that you can change a gearbox out mid race in about 7-8 minutes. Do you need to have both present at a concours to have the complete car?

I've worked on race teams. Parts are parts. If they don't work, they go in the trash...

 

Totally agree.

Thus as I have stated many times Jim has to prove the missing history ... and thus #0846's history will be continous.

If unfortunately he cannot do that, this discussion will never die ... and even for some who like to disbelieve it probably will always irk them.

Jim,

Forgetting all the cr@p on this thread ... the most important thing that I am waiting for has yet to happen regarding #0846 ... and that is:

Can we have a first driving impressions thread please.

I am dying here to know what a car like that is like to drive after the many years it has taken to restore. Does it live up to expectations?, how does it compare to the Lola and Ford?

Regards
Pete

 

Price only means something if the item is brought up for sale. In the case of 0846, it doesn't mean anything because its not for sale.

I think Napolis has had a lot of fun with the car so far and I hope he continues to. I would venture to guess that it is more "valuable" to him now that he's had experiences with the car that have brought a smile to his daughter's face.

My 365 GT4 is one of the least "valued" Ferraris out there (so is my Mondial 8 now that I think about it). How much is the 365 worth to me? It's difficult to say because I never plan on selling it. It was my first Ferrari and I have a lot of great memories of times I enjoyed with it. It also is not for sale so its a moot point to put a price on it.

Price in monetary terms is only what someone is willing to pay for it. If 0846 ever comes up for sale, we'll all know what the monetary value of it is. Till then, this is only wild speculation. Follow Jim's lead, enjoy the car as it is.

 

Not so. My argument isn't that you must have the original bodywork, after all this was race car. But to claim 'this P4 (all of it) is 0846' then the chassis must have at some time been in 0846, the engine must have at sometime have been in 0846, and the body must have at some time been on 0846.
Otherwise you claim that you;
have a replica built on the chassis of 0846, or
have a replica built round the engine of 0846, or
have a replica built with the body of 0846, or
that this is 0846 with a replica body,
but you can't claim that 'this P4 (inferring all of it) is 0846'

And, if your 333SP had continuous history then there would be no dispute. If in 20years time I buy a 333SP tub, a genuine engine, and a set of genuine bodywork I can claim to have a 333SP. But how can I claim that it is the 333SP that won this or that race.
Let's get it clear here. This debate is not over whether Jim has created a P4 - it's over whether it has the right to claim to be one particular, unique P4 - i.e. 0846. Two totally different questions. The criteria for question 2 is a lot different from q.1.

 

I hear your argument on 0846, but let me address this portion first. On a 333 SP or a 550 GT, even if the car was a winner and well documented, does the body work that was raced need to come from the "factory" or is it acceptable if it was made in a private team's race shop?

 

That is exactly what Jim believes ... and I do to after reading is supporting documents.

It is that simple. If Jim can prove (and he is doing a great job so far) that Pipers chassis #0003 (a number Piper gave it) was actually simply chassis #0846 repaired ... then we have a complete 100% continous history for #0846.

Pete

 

Good question - but it doesn't matter - as long as it is clear which is which.
This would fit - "this is 0846 with a replica body (the original is missing/destroyed - whatever)"

But it is not totally 0846 - IMO

 

I disagree. If a substatial portion of this car is a modern recreation, than it is not 846. It is not even a P4 or a Ferrari. It is a "Joe Blow" (the guy who built most of the car)...

I'm awaiting actual documentation before making a final determination.

 

Jim is clear that the bodywork on the car is not the original, as raced bodywork (due to the fact that the car ended its race career with the factory as a wreck). The car is not without stories and Jim is not trying to claim that it is. Several of the "real" 250 GTO's have been rebodied, some more than once (Keith Bluemel's book provides some good history on which ones are which). Nobody is arguing that those aren't real cars, so is there a double standard at play?

 

Sorry Pete - but you took my quote out of context - please quote correctly - you have to read it all - IF Jim can prove that Pipers chassis #0003 was actually simply chassis #0846 repaired the all we have is a complete 100% continuous history for THE CHASSIS only! Come on, we all know the body is a replica - not original.

To claim that this P4 (ALL OF IT) is 0846 then he has to prove, as I said before - "the chassis must have at some time been in 0846, the engine must have at sometime have been in 0846, and the body must have at some time been on 0846."

Otherwise the best Jim can get is - "this is 0846 with a replica body (the original is missing/destroyed - whatever)" -
Jim, would you accept this statement?

 

Piloti,

Again you are missing the point that everybody has made over and over again.

#0846 was a race car. It probably raced with every single one of the P4 engines made ... Jim has a real P4 engine, that has Le Mans scrutineering stamps on it. What car it raced in is still unknown, but there is a very good chance that it was in nearly all the P4's at some stage.

Remember Ferrari did not build a single engine and say ... that is for that car ONLY ... and God help any mechanic that puts it in another car.

Also we already know that the gearbox DID run in #0846 atleast for a short time ... so 1 tick

And yes the body is a NOS ... so was never fitted to any car, but the doors were.

So yes Jim owns #0846 that has been restored and carries a great story ... nobody ever said it didn't, and yes it has had a new body fitted. Whether the body should be called a replica or not ... gee I do not know, but apparently it is NOS, thus made at the same time by the same people. Again they would have made more bodies than chassis' ... because wait for it, they are racing cars and they crash often.

Thus as far as I am concern the chassis' continous history is the only thing that matters. Even if Jim put a Chev v8 in it ... it is #0846 repowered by a Chev v8 ... still #0846.

Pete

BTW: We need to understand why the law and experts have agreed that a car is the chassis ... not the body and not the engine and not anything else, the chassis.

Why did they come to this conclusion?

Because in the old days most manufacturers only made the car up to a rolling chassis state. The body was fitted by some coach builder ... and often changed during the cars life.

Also engines often get changed (as for other mechanical parts) because they wear of fail ... a chassis only gets replaced if the car is written off.

This same analagy works perfectly for a race car. The only thing that really stays with a single car is the chassis ... everything else gets changed to suit the next tracks requirements, etc.

Thus for some tracks they may run a 3 ltr engine (read one of Jim's posts about fuel mileage being more important than power), other tracks the 4 ltr engine. Also some drivers preferred the open body (spyder) so the body would be changed to suit.

Tyres, wheels and suspension components would be changed as per normal for wear, and also for setting up and different tracks.

Thus requiring that Jim have the engine that once ran in #0846 is a bit much IMO ... because even the builders could not have cared less and probably did not even record which engine was in when. The same can be said for the other mechanical components.

 

No, it would mean that 0846 got re-bodied during some time of it's life. Simply a new body. It wouldn't affect the identity of the car one bit. It would perhaps affect it's originality as the racer that took part in Daytona and Le Mans (so as a historical artifact) but a re-bodied 0846 is 0846 in every sense of the word.

 

Come off it, M. Pull the other leg !
The way Jim has rebodied the car is nothing like the way the car ran at Daytona, Le Mans or anywhere else for that matter. #0846 was a P3/4 Spyder. Have you never studied the photos ?
Jim elected to rebody his car quite differently - as a P4 Berlinetta (simply because he chose to), and hoped that the rest of us would accept it as #0846, regardless. If he had the decency to keep to the correct original body style for the chassis # that he is claiming provenance for, I for one, might at least have listened to some of his claims with a little more sympathy !

 

Paul,

You still cannot read. GTE said quite clearly that the rebody affected its originality ... nobody has ever said that it is #0846 as Ferrari originally made it. We are saying that it is the latest form of #0846 ... thus the same car, but modified. Big difference.

Being the same car and originality are completely different things.

Pete

 

I think you'll find that Doug Nye said (elsewhere) that one of the stamps on the heads was possibly an official ACO scrutineering stamp. It has been alleged that David Piper sold the engine to Jim as a 3-litre 3-valve (36-valve) F1 engine. Despite being asked several times to verify the exact swept volume of his 'P4 engine', including once by Doug Nye, Jim has yet to give a straight answer.
So what car it raced in ? Well I guess that could be one of the 312F1's at the '66 Syracuse or Italian Grand Prix ... Your guess is as good as mine

 

Being the same car and originality are completely different things

Pete:
To a number of people, including myself, they are not different things. A certain percentage of the car has to be original (that percentage can ultimately be decided by the classic car community, as I previously suggested), or the car becomes a recreation and is not a real car.

 

Don't talk b*ll*ks, Pete.
What right have the 'royal we' to determine a new form for probably THE most historic winning 'P' car ever ?

Well, as far as I'm concerned, it ain't original and it ain't the same car either !

 

It seems as if you are mistaking originality for identity.

Apperantly, Mr G. is not that much into history as some of us are. If he was, he'd probably have chosen to rebuilt his P4 to the specs in which it took part in a certain famous race. In stead, Mr G. not only choses to re-body it (which had to be done anyway) as a (indeed better looking) Berlinetta, but also to have some adaptations made to run it on the public road. Not my cup of tea, but it is not my car so not my call to make.

I for one cannot understand why you would make the difference. How can it be that you value mr G's claims differently when he'd choose to re-body the car in the way it run those races? The body wouldn't be any more (or less) authentic then the body that is on it right now.

Fact of the matter is, a 1962 GTO remains a 1962 GTO, even if it gets re-bodied in the style of a 1964 GTO. The identity of the car is not determined by it's body, it is determined by it's rolling chassis. Of course, a 1962 GTO would be less original with a 1964 body on it, but it wouldn't take anything away from the identity with which it left the factory in the first place.

Same goes for mr G's P4. When the chassis qualifies as the chassis of 0846, than mr G is the proud owner of the 0846 P4, which started out as a P3 and is now a Berlinetta P4, and somewhere along the way, it had some succes in international racing as well. Terrific, isn't?

 

Paul,

I am extremely disapointed. Your research and passion for proving Jim wrong is definitely falling off . I refer you to this post of Jim's where he fully explains the engine size deal and why:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134365585&postcount=64

But to save you some time, I quote:

Pete