The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

That ofcourse is a very could question.

I did not answer that post, because I do not know the answer.

But we have discussed before the disposal of a GM (I think) prototype where somebody working for GM took the car to a scrap yard or wreckers and told them to destroy it ... er, they didn't and kept the car.

Thus GM has on their official documents: Car destroyed. But we know it wasn't.

Thus absolutely we need to find out what Ferrari have on their records ... but historically Ferrari records (or any Italian company) have been laughable ... but we still need to see them.

No fear Horsefly ... just the answer is all I am after (and I believe most others).


Changing topic and thinking about the fact that we have some sort of proof that Piper's company did infact own #0846 in 1977 as a near complete car with the chassis number still intact.

Could Piper have removed the chassis tag and claimed it as a replica to dodge a large import tax bill? (or though it would have been worth bugger all back then ... but tax is tax to a wheeler and dealer)

And thus if he suddenly confirms that it is indeed #0846 that he will have the tax department knocking on his door with some sort of law suit ... ?

I know strange things use to happen to race cars in NZ to dodge the dreaded import tax ... like shipping the car around the world so that they could say the car was only visiting NZ ...

Pete

 

And not only that they recast the uprights for #0846!, so it is more than just some questionable authentic internet site.

Pete

 

Reaper,

If I could post a pic I would, of a recent viewing of a 250LM racer.

The VIN on these cars is a hand stamped number on a piece of 1" x 3" flat bar, tack welded at each end to the frame rail. It's pretty laughable actually because obviously this could be chiseled off and moved from car to car in about 15 minutes total....allowing for cooling of the new weld bead and touch up respray.

Heck pulling the engine and tranny on the 250LM you could accidentally knock it off if you were not careful.

Its not the fancy plate you see on the older street cars. Far from it.
So the absence from a car that had been damaged and repaired is not the sinister event these posts would lead you to believe.

Two 250LMs were on one team at one point in Europe and so many parts were shared they almost never figured out which was which!

 

Of course, But 0846 didn't sit in a warehouse (or barn) - it disappeared - If it didn't disappear then where was it - do you know?

Again, of course - But, if it had appeared again in 2004 in the same "very nearly complete" condition (with the chassis tag) as it disappeared then there wouldn't be any problem. But it reappeared as something different.

It went out of existence as an ugly duckling and re-appeared as a swan - just like the fairy tale! (And they all lived happily everafter)

 

As much as I know:

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134376816&postcount=292
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134376997&postcount=297
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134377661&postcount=315

Pete

 

Horsefly,
You are very funny sometimes.
You say in previous posts you are a logical person? Maybe, just maybe, nobody can asnwer those questions because nobody has the answers. Should we all post to say we don't know and waste bandwidth. Do you really beleive nobody posted because of "fear in our hearts" Thats ridiculous.

According to the P3/412 book put out by Cavaleria/Huet, Ferrari considers the chassis destroyed in 1968. It was NOT a state of the art car in 68. It was getting long in the tooth in 1967 getting its butt handed to it by the GT40's. It was very underpowered. It just happened to win Daytona in a moment of Glory. So by '68 it was junk. But that is still not to say someone in the junkyard did not pull out the chassis and sell it to Piper. That is what is causing all this confusion. Crazier things have happened. Ferrari wanted nothing to do with repairing a car they would never use. The other P3/4/412's were sold and Can Am'ed with no success at all.

I honestly could not care less if it is or isn't 0846. But I am interested in the truth. I am more interested in the proper restoration of these cars as so many are done inproperly due to lack of research on the part of the owners/restorers. JG explained in posts gone by why he did the car as a berlinetta and I understand. I would have rather seen it as the early P3 from 1966 as none carry that bodywork but thats not really important. But I see you as just wanting NOT to beleive no matter what. Thats your right. Same with Paul Skett. I like Paul. And he knows I am still very skeptical but I am staying as open minded as possible. In fact at first I was sure it was all just BS. However some of this evidence, if its in fact true, is at the very least extremely intriging. Some will beleive some will not, But the fear in the hearts thing? It just comes off as absurd and childish. No offense. You can make your case without trying to stir the pot. Its the same as everyone calling Paul envious because he doesn't own a real one, just because they do not agree with him. I think thats crap too. Paul firmly beleives that the chassis is gone. Hes not jealous. Paul always makes a point of saying the car is beautiful. Thats not a preson who is jealous. Just opinionated. It would great if everyone just stuck to the topics and express their point of view without the rhetoric. Paul comes off a little strong at times but I think a few have come down a little hard on him putting him on the defensive.

Moving right along and back on topic.

If you claimed you found 0846, everyone on here would be asking for proof, just like we are asking JG.

I don't know about you but this sounds logical to me.

Maybe I'm wrong but show me one post were JG says "Trust me, its the real thing". Because if he didn't, is it logical to misquote somebody like that? Because you didn't mention his name but its obvious that is what you are inferring wether you admit it or not. What does that accomplish? If you feel JG is full of BS then just say it. If I thought that I GAURANTEE you I would say it. I'll never be afraid to say what I feel, popular opinion or not.

I hope I didn't strike too much fear in anybodys rectum to get a sensible response.

I'm not trying to p-off anybody. I just would like to see the bottom of this mystery like everyone else.

Respectfully,
Ed

 

I don't think any of us has absolute answers, and maybe we never will. I really don't think JG is trying to put anything over on anyone.

For me, the biggest question of the moment is that if the number plate was on the chassis in 1977, what the hell happened to it?

 

Not unless he plans to sell the real one later.

And based on what he represented to Jim, I don't think that's possible.

Also, as Speedy notes, why bother. If you had the real deal, just sell that for $3MM as is and be done with it, if you knew that's what you had.

Also, making identical welds is impossible. Track damaging and repairing the chassis would be interesting to do, too.

Having read, twice now, Jims bible, and listened to what has gone on here, I think Jim has as close to 0846 as there's ever gonna be.

It's up to the smart guys now to decide if what he has, is enough.

DM

 

I'll ask a logical question. They made 39 250GTO Ferraris. Every one is now accounted for. But they only made a handfull of P3/4 cars. So the heritage of THIRTY NINE 250GTOs can be verified, but the trail of a few P3/4 cars remains a foggy mystery? I don't buy it. I think that there's a wiley old fox in England who knows exactly what happened.

 

Remember a few years ago a GTO ended up in a school and then sat in the open for many years on a trailer ... I think that car was 'lost' for a while.

Also resently we all thought that the GTO prototype (the last prototype) was missing ... but now we know that the wreck is located but still a wreck.

Possibly ... but he may have out foxed himself ... time will tell.

Pete

 

Okay, but what if, after you've given this girl the drilling of her life, she goes out horseback riding. The horse trips and the girl lands on her face and winds up with a couple of metal plates in her head. And, as they're wheeling her into the O.R. she asks the doc to give her some fake boobs because she's flat as a board anyway.

Still the same girl? BTW - she was a nutcase before she got the metal plate.

 

Only my wife would find a way to bring an ex-fiancée into a conversation about Jim's car...

 

I have re-read this a couple of time and still can't figure out who had the metal plate in their head. You or the ex-fiancee.

 

I know both of them and I'm not too sure, either, Dale. But, I know Erik's dad was on to her game before she did the face-plant. The funny thing was that she was covered in blood when she woke up. Her horse had skinned his nose on his way down, and then wiped his nose all over her shirt. The other end would have been more appropriate, she's so full of **** anyway.

BTW - I don't like her much. I know it's hard to tell.

 

The last couple of posts belong in the "what's love got to do with it" thread, and not here

 

This might be an even better question than you may think. Almost all the GTO's have had body work done at one time or another. Most all have been raced and in accidents that required some fixing. Some have been coverted to GTO/64 bodies along with the one rebodied in 330LMB style, but are still considered authentic or genuine. As PSK would say, most have a continuos history.

However none have been missing this long (as far as I know) and then recovered with as just a chassis that has as many questions as the alledged 0846. No question that this case is extreme.

But you have to wonder about many of the cars we take for granted as the real deal.

Ed

 

1967 results:
daytona 24 hours - ferrari
sebring 12 hours - ford
monza 1000 km - ferrari
spa 1000 km - mirage
targa florio - porsche
nurburgring 1000 km - porsche
lemans 24 hours - ford
brands hatch 500 miles - chaparral

the above stats do not show IMHO the p4 getting its butt handed to it by the gt-40. at daytona ferrari resoundingly thrashed ford, at sebring there were no p4s entered. the only other head's up fight was lemans and it was a close run thing.

 

Sorry, Ed, but I'm going to have to side with John, and disagree with you on this one.
The only reason Ferrari would have considered the P4 'junk' was because, due to the changes in regulations for the prototype category (from unlimited capacity down to 3-litres), for '68, the car was no longer eligable for world championship events. In fact, if you remember, Ferrari were so p*ssed about this, they protested and abstained from prototype sports car racing for the entire 1968 season, returning (unsuccessfully) in '69 with the 312P.
In the meantime, David Piper did very nicely for himself with 412P #0854 in non-championship races in 1968. See: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0854.412P.htm
Uncompetitive ? I think not.

PS - And thanks for the other stuff you said in Post #331 - Glad somebody understands me !

 

Both the MK-IV and the P 4's were banned by 68.
Modified versions were legal in Can AM (GS 7 - 350 Can Am) but compared to the Lola's, McLaren's, and Chaparral's they weren't competitive.
In addition no other car ever won a race that a MK-IV was entered in.
At Le Mans the MK-IV went 223. The P4's went 199. The gap at the end was measured in miles. It was not a close thing. That the P4 is prettier is my opinion. That the MK-IV is faster and beat every car it ever raced against is fact.

 

Jim,

What a photo. Thanks.

Erik

 

As most of you know, here is what Barchetta says about 846. Has anyone checked the serial number of the "P5" (if, in fact, there is one on the car?) P5 in quotes, as I don't think it is any kind of official factory designation...


68 - 330 P3 chassis 0846 used as basis for 250 P5 Prototype
68/early - Geneva Show Car

- Shiro Kosaka, J
- displayed in Galleria Abarth, Yamanakako, J

As Alice (in Wonderland) would say...curiouser and curiouser....

 

Oh, that old chestnut.

Apparently you've never seen pictures from all angles of P5's chassis. Let alone P3, P3/4 or P4.

It is most definitely not P3, P3/4 or P4 derived.

Not even close.

 

The P5 issue is cleared up.

 

This was posted at the Atlas nostalga forum, and I think it provides good guidelines.

To Wax and Zjpj:
I HAVE seen many chassis pictures of P3s, P4s, etc.... I didn't say that barchetta was correct; I only said the information was still there as to 846 being part of the "P5" showcar...and was wondering why....





This seems an appropriate place to reproduce the Jenkinson definitions in his book “Directory of Historic Racing Cars.” which I saved off a similar thread.

Original

Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as “nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on, and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.

Genuine

This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.

Authentic

This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.

Resurrection

Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the graveyard.


Re-construction

This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.

Facsimile

Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.

Special

This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.

Duplication

This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.

Destroyed

A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.

Scrapped

This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.

Broken up

Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

Converted

There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to R4B

 

it was closer than you might have it.
winning ford avg. speed: 135.483 mph
2nd place p4 avg.speed: 134.128 mph
distance covered by the winner as opposed to 2nd place: 3251.563 miles vs. 3217.146 miles roughly a 4 lap margin. with less than 2 hours to run, the ferrari was lapping on average 10 seconds per lap faster than the ford. i agree that 4 laps is not close, but still closer than some would have it. and ferrari did win the manufacture's championship that year.