The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I understand what you are trying to get at, but as the coachwork itself is real P4, you can't really even call it a P4 recreation. As the body is now coupe rather than spider, restoration isn't really a proper term either.

Maybe just "holy ****!" should suffice

 

"Holy Sh*t" is fine with me.

 

It is 0846 rebodied as a coupe. Finito!

The fact that the body is NOS makes it even sweeter.

Good things do happen to nice guys.................

Thanks for sharing the journey with us Mr. G

Erich

 

Dr.
This is the photo I promised. Note the blended in rear spoiler and the blended in, raised up from the bottom rear window surround vs. the seperate P3 window surround (0850). Compare to coupe body now fitted to my car. Also note # 23 (Which no one has come up with an explanation for) Believed to be Monza pre Daytona testing. Bandini driving.
0856? 0846's doors?

 

Jim:

Thanks for the packet. It confirmed much of what I believed, and obviously has convinced others. Hope I can see it soon.

My 3yo daughter has reviewed the info as well, and is convinced she wants a P-car. If your daughter ever decides to part with it, my Ava would love a shot at it

Carbon's haiku thread produced a couple cogent to this thread, I only take credit for this one:

Beating an old horse
That Piper sold too cheaply
Means naught when driven

As Always,

 

I'm not sure what car that is, as it has elements of more than one car. Also....maybe it's just the angle the photo was taken, but the rear fender line seems to have a sharper crease at the top of it than "normal".

 

He probably won't make a big deal out of this because he knows that there will never be any way to confirm or deny with legal certainty that the chassis in question is actually 0846. With the chassis numbers missing and the foggy trail throughout the past 37 years of history, nobody is going to come forth and start signing affadavits to guarantee anything if they know that the end results will be a legal battle, somewhere, sometime, over a $10 million car. It's all just like chasing a will-o-the-wisp. It's like asking somebody to PROVE what they had for dinner on any particular evening in 1967. Just because you can come up with a restaurant menu and a receipt from 1967, does it mean that YOU were the one eating the dinner? It might make for a good argument, but who is going to lay their reputation on the line with a potential legal hassle laying in wait many years down the line?

I doubt that Ferrari will ever sign any documents attesting to the authenticity of Jim's car being the LeMans 0846 because the future liability would be too great. Many years down the line, somebody else will be the owner/curator of the car and sooner or later it would all fall on Ferrari's shoulders as being the people who "authenticated" the car. They're never going to do that. What's in it for them if they were to shoulder that legal responsibility? They haven't been watching the remains of a wrecked hunk of old race car chassis for the past 37 years, so how can they ever attest to it's point of origin or it's current status? So the car will forever remain a will-o-the-wisp.

 

http://www.pictchallenge.com/index6.html

 

I suppose Ferrari would never sign any documents of that nature. Why would they? The only one needing to prove that Mr G's chassis is 0846 is the party that is selling this car as 0846. If the buyer isn't convinced that is indeed is 0846, then no deal, or at least not for the price that 0846 would have, if the buyer is convinced than the car is sold as 0846. Does this deal make it 0846? No, but in a legal relation to civil law, the only thing that truly matters is that which counts between to parties involved.

So, only when mr G's chassis comes up for sale (and as I understand it, that point in time is still far far away in the future), the claim of this car being 0846, gets true financial meaning and thus legal importance. But even then, I suppose Ferrari won't play a substantial role. The chassis isn't 0846 because Ferrari says so. The chassis is 0846 on the base of the facts, these facts presented in terms of forensics and / or witness testimony. A simple statement from Ferrari won't do because a claim from Ferrari doesn't hold anymore substance than any other claim, unless Ferrari can back it up with... you guessed it...evidence.

Until that time, it is merely something to discuss among interested and fascinated onlookers such as ourselves and that's why I'm grateful to mr G. that he gets out of his way to share his findings with us, without deciding for us what to believe.

Apart from this, you'd have to admit that mr G's findings make it very probable that his claims are correct.

 

I just have to say Jim that the coupe looks 1000 times better than the spider. I've always been a coupe fan, but in this case it really does completely ruin the lines ...

Even if I owned a 100% genuine one of these and it always was a spider ... I'd be very tempted to carefully remove the original body (store it) and make a coupe body so that I can study the true beauty that Drogo designed.

And if others did not like that ... they can **** off

Pete

 

I much prefer the coupe to the spider, but to say that the spider body ruins the lines of the car is a bit harsh.

 

Jim. As you know Doug Nye confirmed that this photo was taken at Monza during testing. But I believe that it was possibly in testing for the Le Mans Test Days in April '67. This (bold and square) style of #23 is exactly the same as that used on the Le Mans test days - #22 on #0846 and #21 on #0858. The #23's used on #0846, in the Daytona 24Hrs, both in practice (Helvetica) and in the race (with Day-Glo Orange borders) are totally different.

 

Paul
I'm quite sure you're right about the Bandini/Monza Test car (The Photo you sent me and I've posted). Also the line of the door vs. the line where the tail rests makes it VERY unlikely that that photo is 0846. (The undersill would have to be replaced as well to accept the P4 tail with it's raised rest-side view). On 0846 the door/tail rest line is of course even. I just thought the #23 was interesting but your explanation is probably correct as well.
My only point is that this coupe body, with it's blended in rear spoiler and blended in, raised up from the bottom rear window surround is exactly the same as the one now (incorrectly as you have pointed out) fitted to my car.
Best

 

Also the nose of 0846 had a single slit in the center (like the 412P's) and this car has the 2 slit nose such as on a P4 unlike 0846 which was converted to P4 styling.

The sill line as you pointed out is of the P4 style and 0846 retained the P3 body line which made the car totally unique. 412P's also had this sill line but did not have the ducts in the sill but had scoops instead. The P4's did not have the scoops, only ducts.

Jim, what is the "raised up from the bottom rear window surround" that you are referring too?

Sincerely,
Ed

 

Ed that is a very cooll detail. The rear window lip "surround" is formed from the same piece as the tail, raised up from the bottom. This makes a smoother transition cutting drag as opposed to a separate "surround ring" that has a sharper edge (P3 0850) I'll show you this weekend.
Best

I believe years ago I posted pics of this detail and rear window attaching hardware.

 

Yes Ed, this anomoly in the P3/4 and P4 sill lines unfortunately also further serves to highlight the vagaries of the Noble P4 replica bodywork. (That is, apart from the over-high roof line; door shut lines; side window heights; incorrect relative positioning of the rear window, etc., etc.)

As those of you who have seen photos of my car will know, for the last couple of years it has been 'decalled up' as the '67 Daytona 24 Hrs 2nd place car - the #24 P4 Berlinetta - but as the car appeared in practice, without the day-glo green surrounds to the numbers, nor the Prestone decals.

Over the last couple of months, I have had some artworks produced for the correct 1967 style Prestone and Champion decals. Finally got round to having some printed last week, and then having studied photos of both the #23 and #24 cars for a very long time, realized that I couldn't actually position them correctly on my car !

At Daytona the #23 P3/4 Spyder (#0846) had both these decals stuck just above the engine cover handle, but on the #24 P4 Berlinetta, the Prestone decal was fitted on the engine cover, and the Champion decal was BELOW the (higher) rear clip shut line, stuck to the sill. Unfortunately on a Noble P4 replica, this sill to rear clip shut line is neither straight (like a P3/4), nor stepped enough (like a P4). So, after all my efforts to get the decals correct, I've ended up having to fit them as per the #23 car, rather than how they should be fitted on the #24 car, due to lack of room above the upper sill slot. Ho-hum.

I am still looking for a good quality sharp photograph of the #24 Daytona 2nd place car, to help me accurately reproduce correct style (day-glo green border) numbers for my P4 replica. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

 

I understand Jim now has the blueprints (or at least a copy of them), for the P4 chassis. Does anyone have a copy of the blueprints for the P3 chassis?

 

No I do not. Alberto and I saw the one's "That were given to (David) by Enzo Ferrari" but I've never had a copy of them. Those blueprints were def. P4. I've never seen P3 Chassis blueprints. My Book is based on chassis photo's of 0856, 0844,0900,0900a, my chassis, and P3/P4 0846's Technical Data Sheets as well as 0844's and 0850's Technical Data sheets.

 

Thanks Jim. I was under the impression you were given a copy of the P4 blueprints by Piper. I would love to see the actual blueprints (or copies of them) from both the P3 and P4.

I've visited Gilco (now Tafiltubi), who actually built the Ferrari chassis from the beginning to circa 1958. Some of the drawings do not match up with what is on some of the cars. It appears in the early days, Ferraris constantly were constantly "works in progress".

 

No new postings on this thread in over a day!

I was re-reading Jim's pamphlet on the car, and I notice that in the Certificate of Origin from Piper, it says nothing about the chassis coming from Ferrari. All it says is that engine, gearbox, and drawings came from him, along with some body and suspension parts.....all of which were INCORPORATED into a 1967 Ferrari P4, chassis number 003.

The more and more I think about I, I think Piper himself had no idea that he had part of 846....

 

So you think that Piper could have been standing in his garage one day and suddenly said, "WOW, where did that piece of a P2/3/4 chassis come from? How did it get here in my garage?" That happens to me all the time. Sometimes I'll walk into my living room and there will be a big sack of gold coins sitting in the middle of the floor. Or a live wolverine. Or maybe a wheelbarrow full of cactus plants. Or a starfish wearing a tophat. How did those get there? I haven't a clue.

I guess the same thing happened with Piper. Little elves probably dropped it into his garage from a hot air balloon and he has NO IDEA where it came from, be it original scrap or repro or a combination of the two.

 

kick ass pic, now all we need is a pic with the Duzzy and the Lola!!!

 

I think you missed my point. If Piper knew that the chassis did come from 846 or any other "numbered" car, why would he not say such a thing in the certificate of origin? There is NO mention of chassis at all. I think Piper just wanted to build "2nd series" P4s and had 3 chassis built to factory P4 plans, by the oringinal chassis maker...having no idea that the chassis maker had used what was left of 846 to make one of the 3 chassis. What would Piper care about where the parts to build the 3 chassis came from? Why in the world would he even think to question what he got? He wanted 3 P4 chassis, and that's what he got...