The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Utterly amazing pics - thanks very much for sharing the progress - fantastic

 

It is really fantastic work. James thanks for making us share each stage of this resurrection. I believes that that one will be crowned emotion as it will be finished and when it makes its first turns of wheels.

Best regards.

 

Great job.

I love the rear of the car. Really amazing.

They remind me to the 2003 Spa Ferrari Days. Where a team of 4 mechanics (dressed like in the 60's) was working on 0844 in their pitbox. The mechanics where great nice guys. A photographer asked a guy in the pitbox if he could move a littlebit, because the was standing in front of the car. And one of the mechanics said: "Hey that's the drive". Refering to Peter Hardmann.

Because of the rain there was condensation on the inside of the glasses fitted over the front lights. And 2 mechanics where cleaning hem. The other 2 mechanics where working on the engine. I noticed that the engine was covered with plastic, I guess that was too protect it from the rain.

 

Jim,

You bastard hiding the photos under this existing post ... I've been patiently waiting for updates and assumed you were working on the Lola.

This is the best part bolting in the mechanics that make it come alive. Again the tidyness of a professional car versus the home made race car amazes me.

Pete

 

Those pics are just flat out humbling. On top of the body, that red oozes sex. 'Napolis, if you like, I'll also link the other threads on the new board to and from this one. One request, though - when it comes time to exhibit this ride in it's full glory, save and send more than 256 colors!

 

Spare P3 Spyder body? Have I missed something all these months? What's the story on the P3 Spyder body? Looks like it also has a chassis. What does the future hold for it?

 

Pete
I'm just trying to keep P4 in one spot. Note the headlight cover tabs. By doing that they can make the lip smaller and save a tad of weight. This puppy weighed 1850lbs when the MK-IV weighed 2300lbs.
Wax
Greg at GS cuctoms is a GREAT painter. He also painted my Lola (Sunoco Blue Metalflake with a touch of Pearl) The P4 looks dipped rather than painted. Remember we used no clear coat. Pretty wild.
Arlie
Thats the body that was mounted on the car when I bought it from David.
(At the same time I also bought a NOS alloy coupe body) . It's fiberglass. Whoever made it pulled the mold off an alloy rivited body as it has moulded in rivets and even a dent. It's sitting on a storage stand we made. It's a protection as if I prang the alloy body I could use it to make a buck to make a repalcement piece. If I didn't have a way to make a repair I'd probably have a mishap. As I do I probably won't. (I have a complete spare MK-IV and Lola body that so far I haven't needed.)
Thanks to All!

 

Is the engine visible through the glass or is it covered? What a beautiful shape that body is...

 

The engine isn't visible and the intake trumpets are mated to the tail ducting.
The panel under the glass is structural.

 

Jim

Very, very nice

 

Jim,

Any chance your planning on going to New Orleans for the French Quarter Classic this year? I would love to see your car... and even better hear it in action!


Terry

 

One day at a time.

 

James, I want to pull my helmet to you. I just saw the posts on your work.
Good luck in this spectacular project. I know what you're going through !
This remind me my F40LM rebuild, I'm impressed by your work.
Keeps us posted.
take care,
Roland F40LM

 

Thanks Roland.
Coming from you it means a lot.
Best
Jim

 

Max
You have asked the right question. What's original has different meaning to different people. In addition with regard to race cars it's even more difficult. There are very few cars such as my MK-IV J6 that raced once and 36 years later remains rather original. Even then there are questions. When I bought J6 it was painted as the LeMans winner and the "experts" had written in several books the J6 was the Gurney/Foyt LeMans winner. After extensive research I discovered that J6 was not the winner but was the 4th place Donohue/McLaren car and I restored J6 back to it's proper colors. The latest editions of several books reflect my research and correctly note J5 as the winner and my car J6 as the Donohue/McLaren car.
There are indeed "original" cars that have been built up from a "wing nut" Once two D Jags bearing the same chassis number showed up at the same race.
As I've said MANY times my P4 will never be a "No Stories Car." Paul's view that somehow there's 10 million dollars at stake is not correct. Having put all of this on a public forum for years, shown all to this to Ferrari S.p.A and other's, the idea that somehow I could or would try to sell my car as an unmolested, no stories 0846 is absurd. The idea that someone would pay an extra 10 million dollars because I think something is true is equally absurd.

In addition once again my P4 is not nor will be for sale and any statements that I'm doing this for monetary gain are untrue, defamatory, and actionable.
Even though all of this has been laid out for years; in partial summation, once again:
I believe David's written warrants and representations are true. That the engine, transmission, and various body and suspension parts were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in the early 70's and are original 1967 P4.
I also believe Tom Meade's statement as related to Patrick Faucompre that " he personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P4 body."
I also believe that Pinin Farina did not "Find the chassis remains of 0846 in their basement"and use them to build P5.
I Believe Mark Ketcham who wrote:
"I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning. (He was the fellow who saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was definitely and entire chassis stamped 08460"
I Believe Marcel Massini who wrote:
"Yes, I did see- as stated before-the customs CARNET, which is a normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company) was the name of the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as said before"
Mark added:
"He does not know 100% who exported the car from CH, but it was sold to Michael Vernon in GB, who Marcel inspected the car for."
I know that for quite some time, after receiving the details and photo's of my car including chassis number which is asked and required by them and answered by me as 0846 Ferrari placed 330 P4 1966 in "Your Garage" on a web site bearing: "Copyright c Ferrari S.p.A."
I also know that pictures of my restoration including pictures of the uprights Ferrari cast for me are posted in the "Owners Forum" in another section of that same web site.
I believe that David commissioned three P4 chassis from the original P4 chassis builder. One of those chassis wound up in the car I bought.
I believe that pieces of the remains of 0846 wound up in the chassis I bought and this belief is based on forensic examination that occured after I bought this car.
I also know that I was unaware of this at the time I bought my car and David did not represent that it did.
I also think if you read, and look at the photos in "inside Ferrari" by Michael Dregni you will see how old race cars were treated, sold off, and junked during the late 60ies and early 70ies.
How correct will my car be?
Very, very, correct.
How original?
As I've said before when I'm finished all of this will be published in an appropriate place and everyone will decide that question for themselves.
This is the last time, until I publish that I'm going to comment as all of this has been discussed for years and we're continuing to plow the same ground.

 

Well stated Jim. Again, good luck with the project.

 

JG, I think you have done wonderfully well with your car.

If David has given assurances that this car is correct then it is correct. It may help everyone to see the sworn legal documents that David signed. If you could post the legal representations then we can all see that your car has the magnificent honour of being the Pheonix that has risen from the ashes.

I think it may be interesting to all those who are interested to see:

The import papers,
The legal representations; and
any other scrap of Piper paper that prooves the history of the parts.

David and Liz Piper have been the strongest influence in my own racing programme. They have done everything they can to promote me to the right people and thus far this has been a great success. As a team they are the most savvy operators I have ever known. Indeed I have raced as part of Piper Auto Racing and spend three weeks a year with them in South Africa.

Legal documents aside there are certain aspects that worry me, but I don't think this is the forum to air them. However if it were not a correct car, then David and his reputation as a leading light on all Ferrari "P" matters would be destroyed, and in Europe, at least, this sort of thing is seen as criminal. That being the case I am sure David would never be lead into anything other than representing the car as what it was.

So for Piper's sake alone can we just clear up, the area of what he legally told you that he sold you. Then we can all rest easy about this legends involvement about 0846 and carry on with the normal detective work. Which is much more fun.

Max







I believe David's written warrants and representations are true. That the engine, transmission, and various body and suspension parts were acquired from Enzo Ferrari in the early 70's and are original 1967 P4.
I also believe Tom Meade's statement as related to Patrick Faucompre that " he personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P4 body."
I also believe that Pinin Farina did not "Find the chassis remains of 0846 in their basement"and use them to build P5.
I Believe Mark Ketcham who wrote:
"I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning. (He was the fellow who saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was definitely and entire chassis stamped 08460"
I Believe Marcel Massini who wrote:
"Yes, I did see- as stated before-the customs CARNET, which is a normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company) was the name of the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as said before"
Mark added:
"He does not know 100% who exported the car from CH, but it was sold to Michael Vernon in GB, who Marcel inspected the car for."
I know that for quite some time, after receiving the details and photo's of my car including chassis number which is asked and required by them and answered by me as 0846 Ferrari placed 330 P4 1966 in "Your Garage" on a web site bearing: "Copyright c Ferrari S.p.A."
I also know that pictures of my restoration including pictures of the uprights Ferrari cast for me are posted in the "Owners Forum" in another section of that same web site.
I believe that David commissioned three P4 chassis from the original P4 chassis builder. One of those chassis wound up in the car I bought.
I believe that pieces of the remains of 0846 wound up in the chassis I bought and this belief is based on forensic examination that occured after I bought this car.
I also know that I was unaware of this at the time I bought my car and David did not represent that it did.
I also think if you read, and look at the photos in "inside Ferrari" by Michael Dregni you will see how old race cars were treated, sold off, and junked during the late 60ies and early 70ies.
How correct will my car be?
Very, very, correct.
How original?
As I've said before when I'm finished all of this will be published in an appropriate place and everyone will decide that question for themselves.
This is the last time, until I publish that I'm going to comment as all of this has been discussed for years and we're continuing to plow the same ground.[/QUOTE]

 

Alberto Pedretti

 

Just out of curiosity, why does this forum feel that Mr. Glickenhaus needs to prove anything?

Mr. Glickenhaus freely admitted in previous posts that this is not a no stories car but a car that he is rebuilding from significant original P4 components. I for one feel that he is generous in sharing the restoration process with us. If it is no longer fun for him to do, he will stop posting and we will all lose.

Art S.

 

Jim
There is NO reason for you to post the Legal Warrents....
Do so when you publish

jim

 

Definately true. Mr. Glickenhaus has taken the time to share his restoration of a significant piece of Ferrari history and people constantly question the validitity of the cars history. Every time one comment is cleared up another one starts. Please remember as Art S. has stated before if you keep badgering about 0846's history Mr. Glickenhaus will not be bothered to share anything with the community. Please let him finish his car and let him publish the history of 0846 when it is complete.

-Marc

 

Why can't you guys relax and enjoy what Mr G is bring to this site?

He never once stated that the car was 100% 0846. He has told us from the begining that it is NOT a no stories car. He has never made the car out to be anything then he has described it. He has said he is trying to find out as much as he can regarding it's history but you guys procede to rip him apart about stuff he doesn't know yet. FERRARI the company that built the damn car is very interested. They have helped him with components for the car. What gives you guys the right to make cliams agaisnt him when none of you have even seen the car or what he is working with? This David Piper fellow by the sounds of it is Mr P4. So your arguing with him too I guess.

Give it a rest!!!! You have a fake car that will not even be close to the real thing and your a jelous..bottom line. Mr G has realized a dream that you have not..and now you feel it is your right to bring him down so you can feel good about your car.

Mr G. has a real P4 which one he has still has to be determined. Why can't you just enjoy the fact that you are seeing a historical peice come back to life before your eyes?

Tom

Very annoyed with you guys...very.

 

I very much agree with the three previous posts. I reckon James a straight foreward guy with no backchamber options. He has nothing to hide, he knows what he is dealing with.

 

[/QUOTE]


Sorry James.

Thats not really what I was asking I was wondering if you could post Davids representations so that I can refresh his mind about what he signed over.

David seems such an unlikely person to say anything that is untrue, so I think we would all be interested in seeing his documents on the screen in "black and white" so as to speak?

Or maybe I am totally wrong. Anyone is welcome to tell me I am wrong, I dont want to bore you with this?

However, that being said, you really are doing a wonderful wonderful job of your car, of that there is no doubt. Keep it up

Max

 

Art

Of course you are right, James's car is quite superb. There is no doubt that it may well end up being the finest car we ever see. Its a labour of love and its one that he is kind enough to share with this community. The chassis number in question does have a history of reappearing, and as such people are naturally sceptical. Actually, I think we are all having quite alot of fun, taking views and guessing what we have here.

I know a man who has raced cars from the 1950's. He has an involvement with every valuable Ferrari made, and still races lot of them. Those that race with him and have delt with him know that he simply does not miss a trick.

He has replicated more cars from scratch than anyone and knows all the parts of every car he has had an involvement in. The idea that he could have missed a vital detail like a second hand chassis. Or mistook an F1 engine for a P4 engine, is absurd. So maybe we should ask him exactly what he thinks of this car. Then we would all know the answers, but I think that might leave us with nothing to talk about.

What do you think??